There would be less bad teams in the playoffs, and consolidating the good teams into smaller groupings creates more of a grind for the favorites, creating more opportunities for upsets. How many champions have we had in the six class system that were literally untested because they were so far above everyone else? As in not even one close game. To use a local example, in 2015, South Warren won every game by 27 points or more in the playoffs. Would that have happened if region 1 looked like:

 

South Warren vs. Graves County

Christian County vs. Greenwood

 

Owensboro vs. Franklin-Simpson

Bowling Green vs. Hopkinsville

 

That opening game between South Warren and Graves County could have been potentially a better game than any South Warren received in their run, and I 100% know that a matchup against Christian County would have been.

 

How might Johnson Central's 2016 run have looked (where they won all games by 47 points or more) if they had to play Pulaski County in the second round before squaring off against the winner of Ashland and Southwestern in the region finals? To say nothing of eventually running into Bowling Green in the finals.

 

Those may not all be 100% accurate in terms of enrollment, but you get an idea of how a champion would go through a lot more, how there'd be more suspense and possibility for a favorite to fall. Almost everything done now is because Trinity and X (and Male to a lesser extent) were messing up other teams, so the load was reduced so that less teams were trapped with them.

 

Blowouts would still happen in a four class system. And maybe a team might still win multiple games by ridiculous amounts. But in four classes, they're almost certainly going to run into someone who can push back along the way. In 2006, every champion ran into someone that played them within single digits during the playoffs. Every last one, including two in the state title games that won by three points each. Last year, only two of six had a single score game in the playoffs, and only one was in the state title game. The average margin of victory in the state title game in 2006 was 29.5 PPG. In 2006? 14.75 PPG, owed almost entirely to the 34 points that Trinity won by over Ryle in the title game.

 

Just looking at the current allighnment by enrollment...In a 4 Class system

South Warren and Graves would be in 3A and 4A

Owensboro would be on the border of being 4A and Franklin-Simpson would be in 3A

Bowling Green would probably be 4A and Hopkinsville would solidly be 3A

 

Southwestern would possibly be the smallest school in 4A.

 

But to your point there could be possibly good matchups throughout with fewer classes....first round blowouts would probably be even worse.

I'm old school and played in the end of the 4 class system. Where I played is always a contender and has been since the early 2000s. If we were to do the top two teams from each district only, my team would've missed the playoffs 2 out 3 of my varsity years. I originally thought the 6 class system would give the really small schools hope of fielding competitive teams. Over the past 12 seasons or so it has proven me wrong. Even with the four class system the only teams winning were Trinity, X, and Male in 4A. Highlands was a machine in 3A with others breaking through every few years. The only wide open class was 2A, and that only really changed once Mayfield went to 1A and Danville followed suit (or vice Versa). 1A was Dominated by Beechwood in the 90s. One factor of the same teams winning has to do partly with more small city schools losing people to suburbs and consolidation. Also some schools that play literally dress all the boys in the school and can barely field a team. 10 classes or two classes means zip in Ky bc the football is SO TOP HEAVY. Yes the teams may win more or less (depending number of classes) but it'll still be the same names at the top of the list on each class.

 

The last four years of the six class system, three teams won titles in 1A, three teams won titles in 2A, four teams won titles in 3A, and only 4A was truly completely top heavy, with only two teams winning titles. While I'm certain Highlands felt like an unstoppable machine back then, the reality is that they won five titles in one incredibly dominant six year span, winning a title four years before that run and four years after it. Sure, Highlands won titles because they're pretty good, but in the final 24 years of the four class system they won seven titles. They've won that many under the six class system, including the first six years under it. Teams broke through. Highlands made deep runs, but they didn't win every title, outside of that one great run.

 

Seven different teams won 3A from 1990 on. Eleven different teams won 2A. Six different teams won 1A, and five different teams won 4A. Yes, there was some overlap in there with Boyle County, Danville, and Mayfield winning titles in multiple classes, but still, that's 26 distinct teams winning titles in 17 years.

Just looking at the current allighnment by enrollment...In a 4 Class system

South Warren and Graves would be in 3A and 4A

Owensboro would be on the border of being 4A and Franklin-Simpson would be in 3A

Bowling Green would probably be 4A and Hopkinsville would solidly be 3A

 

Southwestern would possibly be the smallest school in 4A.

 

But to your point there could be possibly good matchups throughout with fewer classes....first round blowouts would probably be even worse.

 

Like I said, the numbers won't be exact, just trying to give an idea. South Warren would still have had to go through Christian County, a single opponent greater than any they faced in 2015. Owensboro would be a tossup to possibly still be in 3A, and Bowling Green has always had a knack for staying out of the top class. The point is if it was just that one game against Christian County, it would have been a better playoff than anything they had to deal with. Not having looked at their numbers, there are teams like Highlands, CovCath, possibly Fern Creek, etc. who would have also been in those classes to deal with.

 

To your last - I can't even fathom what logic leap you would make to claim that. How would you figure first round blowouts could be worse when you remove teams that are literally winless or with single wins from the occassion? With four classes, every team has to have won at least one game and usually 2-3 in order to make the playoffs.

 

I'm well prepared for this particular topic because every year it is brought up on our radio show after the first week of the playoffs. In 2016, there were 93 games played in the first round. The average margin of victory was 34.53 - nearly a running clock. AVERAGE. 66 of those games had margins of greater than 25 (70.97%) and only 8 games out of the 93 (8.6%) had single digit margins. In the six class system, the maximum amount of games with single score margins in a single year was 15. The highest percentage was 15.96%, in 2015 (15 of 94 games). 2007 and 2010 are the only years where the amount of games in the first round with margins of 25 points or more was less than 60% of all games. 53/96 in 2007 (55.21%) and 55/93 in 2010 (59.14%). To compare that to 2005 & 2006 (and I never felt compelled to go further because it clearly proved the point), the average margin of victory in the first round was 23.81 PPG and 27.59 PPG. To drive home the point, the last two years of the four class system had an average margin of victory lower than ANY year in the six class system. (2007 being the lowest with 29.27 PPG) There were nearly 30% of first round games with single digit margins in 2006 (19 of 64) and 17.19% (11 of 64) were in 2005. Both percentages exceeding any year in the six class system. Simply put, the data does not support your position that first round blowouts would be worse. There's scarcely any way they could.

 

(Edited to add - 2006 appears to have been an exceptionally competitive year, but it is worth noting that there was a higher percentage of single digit margins in the first round in that season than there were in the second round of the six class system in all but two years of the six class system. That's how much better first round games were in the four class system.)

Edited September 20, 20179 yr by DragonFire

Now that I have stirred the pot really well let me tell you what I'd really like to see.

 

Return to 4 classes with only district winners and runners up making the playoffs.

 

I love football but football season is to long for teams that go deep into the playoffs. However any time the subject of reducing the number of participants in football playoffs is brought up someone will inevitably cry foul because everyone in basketball makes the playoffs, thus my repeated references to basketball in this thread.

 

Comparisons of football to basketball are ludicrous as I hope some of my posts illustrated.

 

and *GASP* I would have no problem with classifying basketball and I also believe that the teams that opt to participate in the All A shouldn't be in the district structure for the Sweet 16.

 

I've always preferred that model for playoffs.

To your last - I can't even fathom what logic leap you would make to claim that. How would you figure first round blowouts could be worse when you remove teams that are literally winless or with single wins from the occassion? With four classes, every team has to have won at least one game and usually 2-3 in order to make the playoffs.

 

 

My point was you would replace the worst teams in a class playing the best teams in that class, with the worst qualifying teams all playing teams that currently are in the next largest class. The enrollment size difference in first round opponents would in nearly every scenario be much more than the current system.

 

There would be some good match ups but the would still be blow outs when a 2 or 3 win Pineville plays Danville in the first round for example. The top 10 6A schools currently would still rout the bottom 10 mid-level 5A's that they would play.

While we are on this subject let me just vent about something else.

 

This whole "the teams who always win should be forced to play up in a class against each other" stuff gets on my nerves.

 

What kind of distribution of wealth bull manure is this???? People complain about how "everyone gets a trophy" then in the same breathe they want to do this?

 

First of all, how would you quantify who has to play up? If it is based off winning a championship then EVERYONE would eventually have to play up.

 

I hate to break it to you folks, but you know what causes programs to evolve.... HAVING SOMEONE WHO IS BETTER THAN YOU.

 

You know why Bowling Green is a State Power? Because for years they were coming up short.

 

You know why Belfry is a State Power? Because for years they were coming up short and Central was eating their lunch.

 

You know why DeSales is a State Power? They got tired of being "that Catholic school noone remembers" in Louisville

 

If you are going to complain about a watered down system, heaven help us if we went this direction. Every other class except the "Champion's" class is basically a glorified consolation bracket.

 

In addition... why in the world should a school like Beechwood, Mayfield, or Danville be asked to play schools 5 to 6 times their size as a punishment for being good and getting the most they can out of their talent pool?

 

Just never understood this way of thinking... if a team feels like they want to step up they should have that right, but at no point should teams be handicapped for doing exactly what they were supposed to.

 

I feel all those teams benefited from the 6 classes though. Before six classes they had 3 championships combined, and now they have 11 combined and 14 total. Regardless, Belfry would of won 2A in the old classification, and that would of taken away DeSales 2 championships. Bowling Green would probably be in the 4A bracket and might have only one.

I feel all those teams benefited from the 6 classes though. Before six classes they had 3 championships combined, and now they have 11 combined and 14 total. Regardless, Belfry would of won 2A in the old classification, and that would of taken away DeSales 2 championships. Bowling Green would probably be in the 4A bracket and might have only one.

 

Bowling Green was actually 3A in the old classification if I recall.. I think they would still have each of their titles with maybe the only exception of 2012. That was a strong Highlands team if I recall.

Under six classes 2.7% of the teams win state championships. The "everybody gets a trophy" statement is absolute nonsense.

Yeah, I was about to ask who I should contact, because in all these years of six classes, my team hasn't received their trophies!

 

But ya know, it sounds good to say it. It doesn't have to be true.

Well, I'm from Ohio so seeing this argument isn't anything new. It's happened all over the country. And there's no real way to solve it with an algorithm.

 

So, the best answer is what Indiana has done, and some other states are now looking at: success factor. "The proof is in the pudding", is an old saying. Instead of trying to forecast who will be 'good teams' and who will be 'bad teams' like they have crystal balls, state associations can simply tabulate the outcomes of games and float teams up or down their classification tables as needed.

 

It's easy, responsive, and self-correcting. It's the Uber of classification designation.

 

If a team succeeds, they move up. They stop succeeding, they get bumped right back down. Team sucks? They can move down. They succeed above mean there? They move back up. Enrollment may be the baseline number, but actually factoring in what we all are trying to tabulate with why a certain team SHOULD be playing with teams better suited to their capabilities is nuts.

 

And why should the KHSAA or any other state do this? Because attendance at playoff games is putrid now. Numbers have been dropping steadily in Ohio for years. State championship games that once saw five-digit crowds now can basically fit comfortably in every 'big' high school stadium in the state. And I'm sure Kentucky by and large isn't any different.

 

The entire reason for classifications was to separate teams of varying abilities so as to not pit two schools against each other where the outcome was decided long before the pen even left the paper.

 

That system has failed. Today, all over, there's teams that you know 99% of the time just by their names who will win. You don't even need to research the game. That particular season. Nothing.

 

Someone brought up a single-tournament structure. Yes. That's one way to 'solve' the problem by simply ignoring that it is a problem. However, the vast majority realize there is a problem with a 1A school playing a 6A school, regardless who it is. If I were to wager money with anyone on here that a 6A school will beat a 1A school more than half the time, NOBODY would take that bet. And they know why.

 

But too many are beholden to "that's a 4A team", that they seem to think some saintly omniscient mind created the 4A designation. It isn't. It didn't. It's just a designation. And it is not the sole deciding factor on whether a 4A can beat a 5A, or beaten by a 3A, for instance. There is ebb and flow between classifications because they are the most rudimentary and basic delineations of teams.

 

There is a better way. Arguing for a proactive answer that 'sees the teams success' before the season hasn't worked. So, at least go with the reactive answer, and slot the teams based on what they've already done and go from there and let the system sort itself.

Time for my semi-annual posting of how 4 classes works mathematically and if structured correctly can improve playoffs.

 

4 Classes

8 Regions per class (no districts)

7 teams in most regions.

 

4 x 8 x 7 = 224

 

Regional playoff format:

 

- First round seed pairings: 1 - bye, 2 v 5, 3 v 4, 6 v 7.

- Second round: 1 v 6/7 winner, 2/5 v 3/4

 

Blind draw the State Tournament format.

 

Pro:

- All teams in post season

- Competitive first round games.

- Bottom teams having a potentially competitive post season game (before going against Region regular season champion).

- Winning regular season is a reward

 

I would go to 9 game regular season since all teams make post season and get a 10th game that way.

 

 

Realistically:

I think the challenge of the spread of enrollments at the high and low end of the scale will keep us at 6 classes.

-

Bowling Green was actually 3A in the old classification if I recall.. I think they would still have each of their titles with maybe the only exception of 2012. That was a strong Highlands team if I recall.

 

I was implying if there were still 4 classes BG would probably be in 4A with alot less championship's. It was 12 years ago they played Lex Cath in the 3A finals. Now they're 2 classes apart.

You think the season is too long for teams that play deep into playoffs? November football and early December football is the best of football IMO.

 

This.

 

I'd agree it's too long to an extent, but cut that time off the front end and not off the back.

 

End of November/early December is when it's meant to be ending (preferably keep the finals the 1st week of December like they've been for some 25-30 years now).

 

Playing 3 games before Labor Day is the issue in regards to "how long" the season is.

 

Most all across the state this weekend will have played their 6th game before the official start of Fall (as you know; the actual season this sport was meant to be played in haha)....let that sink in for a minute. Lol.

Hey, a unicorn sighting... @Harry Doyle :ylsuper:

Hey, a unicorn sighting... @Harry Doyle :ylsuper:

 

Haha. I'm still out here. Hiding in the bushes.

Hey, a unicorn sighting... @Harry Doyle :ylsuper:

 

That 21-game Cleveland Indians winning streak wasn't going to announce itself!