I got news for you......it's always been like this. Transgender people have been around since the beginning of time. Folks of all races have tried to pass as other races to avoid discrimination. Gays have tried to pass as straight. It's not new. The question is why does it upset you?? None of the things you mention affect the way most of us live our life.

 

A transgender using the restroom isn't going to result in sexual assaults, or people trying to "cross dress" to gain access to commit assaults. Remember, most sexual assaults aren't random...they are usually committed by a person the victim knows...not some random person. And if they wanted to use the bathroom to try to attack someone by "dressing as a women", no law is going to stop it, just as nothing is stopping them from doing it now.

 

And again, transgender people are already using the bathroom they identify with now, with no incident. And forcing a transgender women to use the men's restroom is far more likely to result in violence....transgender folks already experience a higher rate of violence than everyone else as it is. Fear is a daily reality for the transgender community.

 

This isn't about privacy.....it's about fear and misunderstanding. The privacy argument for these anti-trans bathroom bills falls apart when it comes to enforcement. Who exactly will have the authority to verify who is “male” or who is “female”? Will there be a bathroom patrol? What will happen to androgynous men and women who don’t conform to the police officer or bureaucrat’s notion of what “real” maleness or femaleness is? The enforcement of these laws would likely lead to less privacy than we currently have now.

 

Bottom line, these proposed laws are simply solutions in search of a problem.

 

To answer your first bolded...it does not bother me at all UNTIL a guy can just say he feels like a woman that day and go into a bathroom or locker room that has my wife, sister or daughter in it. Then it bothers me A LOT. Why does his right to feel like a woman trump a woman's right to feel comfortable in a bathroom. I am just stunned anyone with a wife or daughter does not see the craziness in this.

 

Second bolded...it isn't just about sexual assaults. What if a guy just goes in and watches the women in the bathroom and does not assault any of them. He can be dressed like a guy and just say he identifies as a woman today and nobody can do anything about it if you have it the way you want. Lunacy. So all the women in the bathroom should just accept being creeped out because the guy says he identifies as a woman. He may or may not really but that does not matter.

 

Third bolded...why have any laws then? People still rob banks and commit murders even though there are laws against these crimes. If something being against the law does not stop all from breaking the law, by your logic, we should just do away with the law.

 

Fourth bolded...could not disagree more. It is totally about privacy. Most women and young girls (and their husbands, fathers and boyfriends) do NOT want a man in the bathroom with them. Really not hard to understand.

So now you have to dress as a woman? Maybe he identified as a woman. So your saying there has to be a dress code. What is that dress code ? I asked it earlier , what is the line ?

 

The very clear cut one is already there based on your body parts. Blurring the lines , then where are the limits.

 

Hold on now. A common statement throughout this thread has been that a deviant would suddenly start dressing as females to gain access to women's restrooms and commit crimes.

 

The "problem that doesn't exist" is the pretended difficulty of what to do if a person tries to pass themselves off as a member of the opposite sex to enter that sex's bathroom.

 

If a parent sees a guy dressed up like a woman going into a restroom that his 13 yr old daughter has already entered, we (because of a changed law and societal standard) have introduced a complication and a potentially problem.

 

I have no idea what percentage of pedophiles are also cross-dressers--again, this is besides the point. But someone who would harm a child won't think twice about donning women's clothes and entering a women's restroom if it means they will have access to a little girl behind closed doors

.

 

sex offenders will just use the opportunity provided by the transgender-friendly laws to dress up and gain access to the women's restroom

 

So I'm not the one that brought up that fear. That's what most seem to be worried about. The guy that just simply walks in, like the example that was given, is likely going to get caught pretty quickly. The new law isn't going to prevent that from happening. And with or without any specific laws, there are no incidents that I can find where either a transgender committed a sex crime while using the "wrong" bathroom, or where a non transgender dressed up as the opposite sex in order to gain access to commit a crime. There are however instances where someone used the correct bathroom and committed a crime....in fact one was given earlier in this thread. And no new law prevents that from happening.

 

The fear here is based on two things. One that people will suddenly start cross dressing to commit crimes, which has rarely, if ever happened under existing laws. Two, is that transgender people are likely to commit a crime, do something deviant, stare or otherwise invade someone's privacy. The reality is, that transgender people are already using the "wrong" bathroom everyday without incident.

 

You ask where the line is? We already have a well established line, that quite frankly works well. People aren't regularly using the wrong bathroom, and the transgender people that do, do it with no issues. Any new law isn't going to prevent the problems that have been discussed. And Those problems don't currently exist because for the most part, people respect each other's privacy. As I said before, we are creating problems in order to exercise a solution.

Hold on now. A common statement throughout this thread has been that a deviant would suddenly start dressing as females to gain access to women's restrooms and commit crimes.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

So I'm not the one that brought up that fear. That's what most seem to be worried about. The guy that just simply walks in, like the example that was given, is likely going to get caught pretty quickly. The new law isn't going to prevent that from happening. And with or without any specific laws, there are no incidents that I can find where either a transgender committed a sex crime while using the "wrong" bathroom, or where a non transgender dressed up as the opposite sex in order to gain access to commit a crime. There are however instances where someone used the correct bathroom and committed a crime....in fact one was given earlier in this thread. And no new law prevents that from happening.

 

The fear here is based on two things. One that people will suddenly start cross dressing to commit crimes, which has rarely, if ever happened under existing laws. Two, is that transgender people are likely to commit a crime, do something deviant, stare or otherwise invade someone's privacy. The reality is, that transgender people are already using the "wrong" bathroom everyday without incident.

 

You ask where the line is? We already have a well established line, that quite frankly works well. People aren't regularly using the wrong bathroom, and the transgender people that do, do it with no issues. Any new law isn't going to prevent the problems that have been discussed. And Those problems don't currently exist because for the most part, people respect each other's privacy. As I said before, we are creating problems in order to exercise a solution.

 

You keep talking in circles and avoiding valid points. The reason laws like this are popping up is because unlike 20 years ago there are people pushing for every location to allow this. Using the same attack words of bigotry , discrimination etc.

 

Again where is the line. You have not answered it.

 

How do you prove someone is transgender ? We can prove who is a man and a woman biologically, a mental state cannot be proven.

 

Why is it a big deal if someone doesn't want a man using a restroom with his wife or daughter ?

These laws are simply right wingers trying to get their support base riled up about the transgender lifestyle and choice to be that way. I would bet most of legislators in the most recent law of NC really don't care who uses the bathroom with people, they want votes. Sadly, they will get them.

 

AS was said before this has been going on a long time, why now make it an issue other than the publicity and votes. Clear as night and day.

These laws are simply right wingers trying to get their support base riled up about the transgender lifestyle and choice to be that way. I would bet most of legislators in the most recent law of NC really don't care who uses the bathroom with people, they want votes. Sadly, they will get them.

 

AS was said before this has been going on a long time, why now make it an issue other than the publicity and votes. Clear as night and day.

 

Again because there is a push to promote and legalize in every business and punish businesses who don't allow it. Shame business as being discriminatory for not allowing it.

 

This wasn't happening 20 years ago.

These laws are simply right wingers trying to get their support base riled up about the transgender lifestyle and choice to be that way. I would bet most of legislators in the most recent law of NC really don't care who uses the bathroom with people, they want votes. Sadly, they will get them.

 

AS was said before this has been going on a long time, why now make it an issue other than the publicity and votes. Clear as night and day.

 

What high school or grade school did you go to that allowed boys to use the girls restroom ? That's been happening forever ?

 

Me thinks you are fibbing

To answer your first bolded...it does not bother me at all UNTIL a guy can just say he feels like a woman that day and go into a bathroom or locker room that has my wife, sister or daughter in it. Then it bothers me A LOT. Why does his right to feel like a woman trump a woman's right to feel comfortable in a bathroom. I am just stunned anyone with a wife or daughter does not see the craziness in this.

 

Second bolded...it isn't just about sexual assaults. What if a guy just goes in and watches the women in the bathroom and does not assault any of them. He can be dressed like a guy and just say he identifies as a woman today and nobody can do anything about it if you have it the way you want. Lunacy. So all the women in the bathroom should just accept being creeped out because the guy says he identifies as a woman. He may or may not really but that does not matter.

 

Third bolded...why have any laws then? People still rob banks and commit murders even though there are laws against these crimes. If something being against the law does not stop all from breaking the law, by your logic, we should just do away with the law.

 

Fourth bolded...could not disagree more. It is totally about privacy. Most women and young girls (and their husbands, fathers and boyfriends) do NOT want a man in the bathroom with them. Really not hard to understand.

 

Look, I get the concerns about privacy. And I absolutely don't want some random guy to walk in to the ladies room and spy on women. But guess what....guys drill peep holes, install hidden cameras etc right now...ask Erin Andrews. There's nothing that stops a guy right now from sneaking in and being a voyeur. And no new law doesn't stop someone of the same sex from committing "voyeuristic" offenses. While a guy might claim a "right" to be in there, he doesn't have the right take pictures, stare at, harass, or assault someone. And no law allowing transgenders to use the bathroom they identify with will suddenly allow people to break those laws, and claim their right to be there. Because the right to be there doesn't allow you to break the law. Remember, there are no specific laws right now, and guys aren't just wandering in the ladies room. Current laws are working just fine. It's a new law trying to prevent our "fears" that are introducing the blurriness.

While in Europe was at a bar that had a uni-sex, multi-person facility. 'Stand-ups' where just inside the door and open as in a regular men's restroom. 'Sit-downs' were in the back with doors but you had to walk by the stand-ups to get to those. Just a normal thing there. But as noted above - the U.S. culture is different.

 

My young male co-worker did not realize the facility was uni-sex as a woman came out. She saw his surprise and realized he was American and had some fun with him pointing to him and her and pointing the two two symbols on the door pointing out it was for both and it was OK. It was funny.

Never a good thing when someone is pointing and laughing while you are at the urinal.

Never a good thing when someone is pointing and laughing while you are at the urinal.

 

I was in the pool!!!

1. Why are there men's rooms and women's rooms to begin with? I don't know that anyone has answered this question when I brought it up before. Perhaps we should know the answer to this before we go changing the rules. Seems to me the need for separate bathrooms and separate locker rooms has not changed.

 

2. The reason the possibility for sexual assault was brought up by me is because people are ignoring every other common sense reason that men should stay out of women's bathrooms. I hoped that mentioning the worst-case-scenario of making it easier to prey on children and women would make it plain that this is bad policy. And I do not want to see children and women hurt as a result of a policy that is founded in confusion and passed off as sensitivity.

 

3. I don't want to see any new laws enacted. If activists (both on the bench and not on the bench) would stop trying to find a "right" for men to use the women's room then there would be no need to address this issue in the law.

 

4. I am not trying to get anyone's vote. This is my honest opinion. I happen to think it makes good sense. Leave well-enough alone.

1. Why are there men's rooms and women's rooms to begin with? I don't know that anyone has answered this question when I brought it up before. Perhaps we should know the answer to this before we go changing the rules. Seems to me the need for separate bathrooms and separate locker rooms has not changed.

 

2. The reason the possibility for sexual assault was brought up by me is because people are ignoring every other common sense reason that men should stay out of women's bathrooms. I hoped that mentioning the worst-case-scenario of making it easier to prey on children and women would make it plain that this is bad policy. And I do not want to see children and women hurt as a result of a policy that is founded in confusion and passed off as sensitivity.

 

3. I don't want to see any new laws enacted. If activists (both on the bench and not on the bench) would stop trying to find a "right" for men to use the women's room then there would be no need to address this issue in the law.

 

4. I am not trying to get anyone's vote. This is my honest opinion. I happen to think it makes good sense. Leave well-enough alone.

 

Believe it or not, we are not all that far apart.

 

1. No one has defined why we need a separate restroom for each sex, because there is no need to. I'm not saying we need to take the signs down and eliminate separate bathrooms. The system that we have set up as a society works, and works well. The thing to keep in mind is that a transgender person isn't likely to invade on anyone's privacy. They are no more likely to "peek in" on somebody, or be flamboyant. They are in the restroom for the same reasons everyone else is...to take care of their business quickly and privately. And we have no idea who most of them are. Of course all that changes if you force them into the correct bathroom....a transgender person who looks and dresses like a women will cause a much bigger stir and upset more people than if that person used the women's room. You can be sure that these folks are using the bathroom they feel most comfortable in right now, with absolutely no issues. A transgender women who dresses like, looks like, and acts like a women every day , is for all intents and purposes a women. A guy who looks like, dresses like and acts like a man, is NOT transgender, and is therefore not afforded access to the ladies room. It's not the hard.

 

2. I understand the "worst case scenario" theme. However, there is no evidence in any of the areas that do allow transgender folks to use the bathroom they prefer, that these worst case scenarios actually happen or are more likely to happen. There are no cases of sex offenders dressing as women and entering ladies rooms to find and assault victims. And transgenders are no more likely to commit acts of voyeurism or invade someone's privacy. And remember, there ARE incidents of same sex assaults occurring in bathrooms and locker rooms that occur on a regular basis.

 

3. I've been saying all along, there's no need for a law. Current laws work just fine. Passing a law forcing transgender persons out of the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, creates more problem.

 

4. I'm not stumping for votes either. People continually complain about big government, and how we don't want government in our lives on a day to day basis. But yet we want more laws like this passed, which create huge privacy concerns in the enforcement of the law.

delete. I failed to multi quote. I'll try again in another post.

Believe it or not, we are not all that far apart.

 

1. No one has defined why we need a separate restroom for each sex, because there is no need to. I'm not saying we need to take the signs down and eliminate separate bathrooms. The system that we have set up as a society works, and works well. The thing to keep in mind is that a transgender person isn't likely to invade on anyone's privacy. They are no more likely to "peek in" on somebody, or be flamboyant. They are in the restroom for the same reasons everyone else is...to take care of their business quickly and privately. And we have no idea who most of them are. Of course all that changes if you force them into the correct bathroom....a transgender person who looks and dresses like a women will cause a much bigger stir and upset more people than if that person used the women's room. You can be sure that these folks are using the bathroom they feel most comfortable in right now, with absolutely no issues. A transgender women who dresses like, looks like, and acts like a women every day , is for all intents and purposes a women. A guy who looks like, dresses like and acts like a man, is NOT transgender, and is therefore not afforded access to the ladies room. It's not the hard.

 

2. I understand the "worst case scenario" theme. However, there is no evidence in any of the areas that do allow transgender folks to use the bathroom they prefer, that these worst case scenarios actually happen or are more likely to happen. There are no cases of sex offenders dressing as women and entering ladies rooms to find and assault victims. And transgenders are no more likely to commit acts of voyeurism or invade someone's privacy. And remember, there ARE incidents of same sex assaults occurring in bathrooms and locker rooms that occur on a regular basis.

 

3. I've been saying all along, there's no need for a law. Current laws work just fine. Passing a law forcing transgender persons out of the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, creates more problem.

 

4. I'm not stumping for votes either. People continually complain about big government, and how we don't want government in our lives on a day to day basis. But yet we want more laws like this passed, which create huge privacy concerns in the enforcement of the law.

 

First of all, thank you for the clear discussion. I appreciate your point-for-point response. However, I think we are miles apart.

 

1. I assume you are referring to a male in the bolded sentence. When you say "A transgender women (sic)" I am assuming you are referring to a male who feels like he is a woman and self identifies more as a woman. If that person, who is a male, dresses up like, behaves like, and feels like a woman, you say that person is "for all intents and purposes a women (sic)."

 

This is where we are miles apart. That person, though he dresses up like a woman and "acts like" a woman, and feels like a woman, that person is still male as determined by his biology and no man should have access to the women's room. His behavior is abnormal (sorry for the term because it has negative connotations and may be abused but it is an accurate description) and the public should not be forced to accommodate it at the expense of the right to privacy that we should afford a ten year old girl.

 

I think you do agree with me that no male should be allowed in a women's locker room where a ten year old girl may be in various stages of undress or in the shower and the transgender male may be in various stages of undress including completely nude to take a shower or to change into a swim suit. This scenario will be impossible to prevent if men are allowed in women's restrooms. The locker room will be next.

 

There are inherent differences between men and women and those differences should not be diminished or ignored. Those differences cannot be overcome just because someone "feels" he or she was meant to be the opposite sex from that which he or she was born. We are heading in a direction that seeks to normalize an anomaly and tries to erase difference that nature intended. This is unhealthy for society and individuals and will lead to confusion and chaos.

 

2. I don't know if your claims are true. This has not really been tested yet but just wait until the accepted practice is men dressed up like women in the ladies' room and it becomes common place.

 

3. If current laws work just fine why did a federal appeals court rule against the Virginia school system's policy that says a person must use the restroom for the sex that they were identified as on their birth certificate. That is the ultimate example of the government getting involved and they weren't invited in by the traditionalist side. When we have the government telling the school that male isn't male it may also be female and that female isn't necessarily female it may also be male, we have a problem and the problem is with the government. And in this case, the government isn't “we the people”, it is “we the few,” the few activist judges who are appointed to a position and then have the power to change the very definition of male and female. That is bogus.

 

4. See previous comment under #3 about the involvement of government. I do not accuse you of stumping for votes. I included this to address another post that suggested these matters are being brought up by politicians to generate support for their re-election. Rather, I think this is a grass roots issue in response to the attempt to force changing cultural norms on the majority.

 

You and others think this is not a big deal, people already are sneaking into the wrong restroom and we don't even know it.

 

When society is being asked to accept a changing definition of male and female we are headed for deep confusion. The traditionalist has been forced to accept a different definition of marriage, family, and now of personhood. I think we have no idea the consequences that will result from such confused notions.

 

I hope I have not offended anyone by my frankness. I really don't intend that. I try to understand different perspectives and to be accepting of people. I think I can do that without agreeing with everything they think or do and without giving up my own deeply held convictions that I think are worth standing up for.

They have already installed a "family" restroom in most places where you can have a little more privacy. If the trannies are so concerned about it use that one. My lord this country is getting weaker by the day. Transgender restrooms??? Who ever heard the like. SMDH.

 

Ill tell ya one thing it opens up so many avenues for the pervs and if my daughter was to ever be in that situation at a store and I get wind of it, Somebody will be wearing an "donkey" whoopin home with them.

 

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I assume the post below could have been made if there were message boards back in the '50s & 60s.

 

"They have already installed black restrooms & water fountains in most places where you can have a little more privacy. If the blacks are so concerned about it use that one. My lord this country is getting weaker by the day. Integrated restrooms??? Who ever heard the like. SMDH.

 

Ill tell ya one thing it opens up so many avenues for the criminals and if my daughter was to ever be in that situation at a store and I get wind of it, Somebody will be hangin from a tree."

 

As offended as PB98 and others who share those same beliefs may be after reading the above, that is how commonplace and majority those beliefs were back then AND how the great majority will feel about the original post on this issue 10 or 15 years from now.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I assume the post below could have been made if there were message boards back in the '50s & 60s.

 

"They have already installed black restrooms & water fountains in most places where you can have a little more privacy. If the blacks are so concerned about it use that one. My lord this country is getting weaker by the day. Integrated restrooms??? Who ever heard the like. SMDH.

 

Ill tell ya one thing it opens up so many avenues for the criminals and if my daughter was to ever be in that situation at a store and I get wind of it, Somebody will be hangin from a tree."

 

As offended as PB98 and others who share those same beliefs may be after reading the above, that is how commonplace and majority those beliefs were back then AND how the great majority will feel about the original post on this issue 10 or 15 years from now.

 

Call me what you want!! I don't give 2 :poop:'s. I know I am not a raciest or a bigot like your above post is trying to portray me or people with my beliefs. Fact is you are born the way you are born with the parts you born with. Now if you choose or "born" gay then ok. I'm not a homophobe. But if you are gay and born with a penis then go to the mens room. If you are born with a vagina go to the ladies room. Now if you want to mess with what god made you and have surgery to change your penis to a vagina or vagina to a penis then first off I feel sorry for you when its your time to meet your maker, but secondly if that is your choice then until said surgery has been completed you A.) got to the restroom you are equipped to use or B.) use the family restroom for privacy.

 

I don't know why you tried to turn my comment into a black/white or gay/straight discussion, but my comment was about a man using a womans restroom. Weather he wants to be a woman or not doesn't matter. If I have to explain to my child why some man was in the bathroom with her then its a problem for me. And if you are so naïve to think there are not people out there that will take advantage of this to get in the womans restroom to get to women or little girls then my friend I will pray for you. There are many sicko's out there that will be much more enabled.

 

I guess we could build them there own restroom but wouldn't that actually set us back as a country. Segregate the tranys? aren't we past segregation at this point :idunno: Just use the damn restroom for which you are equipped to do so. Its not that hard is it?