Question for BGP's atheists/agnostics

[InItToWinIt]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I came up with a much higher number... 635,013,559,600 to 1. (Of course, it's been years since I took a statistics course!)

 

You may be right; this is the number I took from a cards-odds website.

 

I think a better way of looking at it wouldn't be to ask if it were random or rigged, because either COULD happen. I think the better question is what is the more likely cause?

 

You are right. So, how does this relate to the origin of life and theism?

 

Let's take the most basic life form on Earth - a unicellular prokaryote with a single loop of DNA. To keep things simple, we'll say this single strand of DNA has 100 bases. (Note that this is much, much, much simplier than any strand of DNA found on Earth).

 

Darwin suggested that life was formed on earth by basic chemicals that are found in small bodies of water, with the aid of energy (heat or light) were spontaneously formed into organic compounds. The odds of this particular formation taking place are 1,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1. (4 to the 100th).

 

Keep in mind, this is a much simplified version of the most basic form of life on earth. The universe (shown by science) has existed for 13.8 billion years. 13,800,000,000 is a fraction of 4^100.

 

Even if there are billions or trillions of universes out there, I find it logically impossible for such small odds to take place without SOMETHING putting it into motion.

[HammerTime]

No question someone rigged it. The percentages of it happening randomly are so astronomically small that it would never happen if you spent your entire life shuffling and dealing, and repeating.

 

This...

[Science Friction]

Most Christians have no understanding of the Improbability Principle. This law explains why events with seemingly impossible odds occur all the time. No divine or supernatural explanation required whatsoever. For your edification, I highly recommend David Hand's insightful book Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day.

[InItToWinIt]

Most Christians have no understanding of the Improbability Principle. This law explains why events with seemingly impossible odds occur all the time. No divine or supernatural explanation required whatsoever. For your edification, I highly recommend David Hand's insightful book Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day.

 

I think there is a difference between improbable and impossible. Even if there are 1 trillion universes out there (much more than estimated), then the odds are still 1,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000, to 1.

 

These are the odds of a single strand of DNA (oversimplified in this example) existing in a cell. To me, it is unfathomable to take those odds. I don't have a problem with anyone who does, but I am called as a Christian to at least try to show them my point of view.

[Science Friction]

If you repeat this process over billions of years I expect your result many many times over.

 

 

Finally, someone who gets it!

You are correct... The Improbability Principle.

 

"Miracles" happen all the time. Not because of some divine occurence but because math says we should expect it.

[InItToWinIt]

Finally, someone who gets it!

You are correct... The Improbability Principle.

 

"Miracles" happen all the time. Not because of some divine occurence but because math says we should expect it.

 

I don't think you read my posts.

[The Professor]

You may be right; this is the number I took from a cards-odds website.

 

 

 

You are right. So, how does this relate to the origin of life and theism?

 

Let's take the most basic life form on Earth - a unicellular prokaryote with a single loop of DNA. To keep things simple, we'll say this single strand of DNA has 100 bases. (Note that this is much, much, much simplier than any strand of DNA found on Earth).

 

Darwin suggested that life was formed on earth by basic chemicals that are found in small bodies of water, with the aid of energy (heat or light) were spontaneously formed into organic compounds. The odds of this particular formation taking place are 1,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1. (4 to the 100th).

 

Keep in mind, this is a much simplified version of the most basic form of life on earth. The universe (shown by science) has existed for 13.8 billion years. 13,800,000,000 is a fraction of 4^100.

 

Even if there are billions or trillions of universes out there, I find it logically impossible for such small odds to take place without SOMETHING putting it into motion.

 

The problem I have with your last paragraph is if "something" put everything into motion then what put the "something" into motion? Then what "something" put that "something" into motion, and so on. That's a bigger question than all these statistics you're listing.

 

I think one thought is even though the odds of your examples are astronomical, (and we're really talking about the origin of life on earth, not cards) one of them is dealing with mathematical possibilities that still could happen regardless of how remote the possibilities, and the other is dealing with magic.

[InItToWinIt]

The problem I have with your last paragraph is if "something" put everything into motion then what put the "something" into motion? Then what "something" put that "something" into motion, and so on. That's a bigger question than all these statistics you're listing.

 

I think one thought is even though the odds of your examples are astronomical, (and we're really talking about the origin of life on earth, not cards) one of them is dealing with mathematical possibilities that still could happen regardless of how remote the possibilities, and the other is dealing with magic.

 

To the bolded, this was addressed by Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century. The theory is called the "Uncaused Cause." Since we can prove that the Universe has existed for 13.8 billion years, that means it has a beginning. The "Uncaused Cause" existed before 13.8 billion years ago, and put the Big Bang (or whatever started the universe) into motion. Make any sense? To Christians, we call this Deity that has always existed (even before the universe) "God."

 

I am by no measure an expert on this, but I believe I have the basics down.

[InItToWinIt]

Another topic I am far from an expert in is intelligent life made from carbon. But I watched a video today of Keith Ward talking about this very topic. A point he continued to reiterate was that intelligent life made from carbon (creatures on Earth) could ONLY exist in the exact conditions and atmosphere that we do. Intelligent life began developing on Earth at the exact moment in existence when it was possible, despite the odds in my previous posts. I find that astounding.

 

Also, he made another neat point that science will never be able to explain. If I want to do something simple, say raise my arm, how do I do so? Well first, I have to intend to raise my arm, then chemicals and ideas are released in my brain, which then moves the necessary muscles to lift my arm into the air. But how can we explain the connection between ideas/intentions and activity in the brain? How can my simple intent create such an elaborate process that actually carries out that intent? Maybe the answer in this particular case is not a Deity, but its a neat thing to think about.

[Science Friction]

To the bolded, this was addressed by Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century. The theory is called the "Uncaused Cause." Since we can prove that the Universe has existed for 13.8 billion years, that means it has a beginning. The "Uncaused Cause" existed before 13.8 billion years ago, and put the Big Bang (or whatever started the universe) into motion. Make any sense? To Christians, we call this Deity that has always existed (even before the universe) "God."

 

I am by no measure an expert on this, but I believe I have the basics down.

 

 

What if the Universe is not 13.7 billion years old. A new model , which may help explain dark matter and dark energy, suggests that the Universe is infinitely old? If that be the case, would a Universe that had no starting point have a need for a Creator God? Or is the Universe(Or the collective consciousness of the Universe) itself God?

[B-Ball-fan]

Science has been impressive and is a great value in its pursuit of knowledge in a multiple variety of disciplines. I would never suggest that it ever give up its quest to continue to discover and understand more.

 

With that said, in the specific field of Astrophysics although much can still be learned, while much has been learned, and many are forever striving to understand more, and I'm all for them trying, I've no doubt in my mind that any concrete definitive answers of the origins of the universe will forever remain elusive.

 

It all makes for interesting dialogue just as does the question of the existence of a god and the possibility of an afterlife beyond our physical time here on earth. It all makes perfect sense that although we are limited in what we can understand, that humans would be eager to know.

 

No matter how eager we may be for the answers, I'm of the thinking that conclusive evidence one way or another will forever remain out of our reach.

 

We've really not the benefit of asking those who've passed on what they might have come to discover since taking their last physical breath.

 

Many feel that they've been offered signals from loved ones who have passed, including myself, and while it tends to offer a sense of hope, a complete understanding of such experiences, at least for me, remains questionable, and not entirely comprehendible.

 

Humanity will forever desire knowledge and understanding, and I'm certainly one in that same camp. For me however the limitations seem far too obvious to ever campaign so stronger in favor of any particular line of thinking on the matter, or to boldly offer any answers that I would come near suggesting are without doubt conclusive.

 

I must admit though that it boggles my mind how so many are of the thinking that they do know the answers, and deliver such concepts in a fashion that would suggest complete certainty. If they've turned over a stone of enlightenment that I, or many of us have yet to, then kudos to them.

[InItToWinIt]

What if the Universe is not 13.7 billion years old. A new model , which may help explain dark matter and dark energy, suggests that the Universe is infinitely old? If that be the case, would a Universe that had no starting point have a need for a Creator God? Or is the Universe(Or the collective consciousness of the Universe) itself God?

 

To be honest I am not familiar with the new model and I've always thought 13.7 billion was the generally agreed upon age of the Universe. If the universe is infinite, I would agree with you that the collective consciousness is indeed God.

 

The absolute truth in the end is that no one knows the true way in the universe came to exist. There are plenty of plausible scientific theories out there but they are just that: theories. And many of them show to have evidence of being real; but there is one question which science will never be able to answer:

 

Why?