Hal McCoy article.

The Real McCoy | www.daytondailynews.com

 

“You can’t tell by Brandon’s face whether we won or lost, but you can tell if he went 0 for 4 or 2 for 4 no matter if we won or lost.”

 

"Said one man who is in the clubhouse every day." Stowe? A security guard? Latos?

 

Look, the clubhouse sucked because they underachieved. Have you ever heard of a great clubhouse on a team that underachieved? No, the teams with the best clubhouse, ironically, are the teams that are winning the division or making deep runs in the playoffs.

 

While it's nice to have great clubhouse chemistry, at that level I think it's a little more overstated. Baseball is a team sport with a ton of individual aspects. It's like saying an NFL team's offense and defense don't get along. Who cares?

 

I'm not saying he isn't a clubhouse cancer but I need something that tells me he is so bad in the clubhouse that he is making his team worse.

Is there any proof besides the one comment Phillips made about Votto's contract that shows he was disliked or created issue's in the clubhouse?

 

He wasn't a fan of the attention Hobbs received.

Who the hell said that? Sure as hell wasn't me. You can keep up with the ignorant jabs all you want, I have no desire to debate anything with someone who resorts to those tactics. You're a great representation of this site Spin. :thumb:

 

My post never said anyone in particular, it was a general statement. Thanks for the compliment, I spend quite a lot of time a work on this site. Appreciate the love. And for the record, you haven't debated a thing. You throw out numbers like they're the end all, and they're just not. When someone makes a comment, you throw out a stat. That's fine, just not buying the defensive runs saved stat when it comes to BP. I stand by my original point, if he leaves, and I'm not opposed, there will be a loss that can't be replaced at the same level on the defensive side of the inning. Write it down.

I'm not in the mood to argue with you, but that stat is the biggest crock of crap on paper.

 

You're entitled to be wrong. :thumb:

 

See that is the problem with using stats on this. How can you possibly have stats on how many runs a guy has saved or would have saved? Is it making a play with someone in scoring position? What about making a diving play to save a hit with no one on base? How do we know if he doesn't make that play if a guy would have scored or not? How many of his outs ended an inning, that prevented another guy from coming up. How much does it play into a pitchers mind if some of those diving plays ended being hits, and now the next guy he has to pitch from the strech instead of the full wind up. So many different things could have happened base on a single hit happening, even if not one was on base at that time.

 

I love all the stats you use, but this is one stat that is useless to use. However I know I am fine with them trading him, because of the money they may save, but it will also depend on who his replacement is.

In my opinion this did not come down to stats or money. If you urinate off your boss and embarrass his team with a temper tantrum, you’re gone. It’s as simple as that, again IMO.

Here is the problem I have wioth the Reds, and they aren't the only ones who do this kind of stuff.

 

Why sign a guy to a big contract and then look to move him the very next year. That is moronic on it's highest level. He was already wroapped up for last season so if you are going to be so fickle because of something he says then the only advice I have for the organization is grow a thicker skin.

 

I'm not saying trade or don't trade BP, all I'm saying is don't sign a player to a big contract and then less than 12 months later float the idea of trading him.

 

Morons.

Here is the problem I have wioth the Reds, and they aren't the only ones who do this kind of stuff.

 

Why sign a guy to a big contract and then look to move him the very next year. That is moronic on it's highest level. He was already wroapped up for last season so if you are going to be so fickle because of something he says then the only advice I have for the organization is grow a thicker skin.

 

I'm not saying trade or don't trade BP, all I'm saying is don't sign a player to a big contract and then less than 12 months later float the idea of trading him.

 

Morons.

 

Very true. If Phillips was any kind of a clubhouse problem, and I'm not saying he was, then how bad do you think it will be next season when he knows the team has been openly shopping him in the offseason?

Very true. If Phillips was any kind of a clubhouse problem, and I'm not saying he was, then how bad do you think it will be next season when he knows the team has been openly shopping him in the offseason?

Exactly. Also, the whole "Clubhouse" thinkg always makes me laugh. These guys are adults, if you neeed someone greeting you at your locker every day as you come in to work to go Rah Rah Rah and pat you on the back then you need a little more professional help in your life.

 

I doubt very much that Joey votto is very outspoken in the locker room, why isn't he a problem? BP hhas been around long enough that they know what kind of person he is long before he made the commments in the article....comments that i didn't think were that big of a deal in the first place. If Management had that much of a issue with what was said then they have more of a problem than anyone else.

 

IF you want to trade BP, trade him because he isn't helping your team on the field, not because you got your feelings hurt off the field.

I’m guessing here, and I could be way off base and in over my head as well, but you play his desire to stay in Cincy against him. Sign him to a decent contract, which by the way no one put a gun to his head to sign, probably less than what he could get on the FA market. Doesn’t that make him more attractive to trade because he is under contract?

"Said one man who is in the clubhouse every day." Stowe? A security guard? Latos?

 

Look, the clubhouse sucked because they underachieved. Have you ever heard of a great clubhouse on a team that underachieved? No, the teams with the best clubhouse, ironically, are the teams that are winning the division or making deep runs in the playoffs.

 

While it's nice to have great clubhouse chemistry, at that level I think it's a little more overstated. Baseball is a team sport with a ton of individual aspects. It's like saying an NFL team's offense and defense don't get along. Who cares?

 

I'm not saying he isn't a clubhouse cancer but I need something that tells me he is so bad in the clubhouse that he is making his team worse.

 

I agree about the clubhouse thing. Every team that wins somehow had a great clubhouse. Yeah b/c winning is a ton more fun than losing.

I will have to look at the stats (I know Spindoc will hate that) but my eye test tells me he isn't good at turning double plays. He is a great defensive player no doubt but he isn't as good as he was 4 years ago and he won't be as good 2 years from now as he is now. That along with his terrible contract, his willingness to call his owner a liar about that contract and his outburst to a media member that correctly pointed out a stat should get him dealt. Saying all that there is almost no way they will match his production offensively and defensively next year. If they can sign Latos or Bailey to a long deal who cares though? Those two are far more valuable than BP.

I will have to look at the stats (I know Spindoc will hate that) but my eye test tells me he isn't good at turning double plays. He is a great defensive player no doubt but he isn't as good as he was 4 years ago and he won't be as good 2 years from now as he is now. That along with his terrible contract, his willingness to call his owner a liar about that contract and his outburst to a media member that correctly pointed out a stat should get him dealt. Saying all that there is almost no way they will match his production offensively and defensively next year. If they can sign Latos or Bailey to a long deal who cares though? Those two are far more valuable than BP.

 

Huh? He isn't good at turning double plays? If he isn't good at turning double plays, then what 2nd baseman is? I watched the same games you did, and I am not seeing that.

 

Completely agree though with your last sentence on getting either Latos or Bailey signed.

.......

 

As I mentioned before the Pirates playoff game, Dusty was the reason for BP getting signed and kept. BP has been an issue for a long time internally, not well liked by the owner on down. Once Dusty was gone, BP was gone. Simple as that.

See that is the problem with using stats on this. How can you possibly have stats on how many runs a guy has saved or would have saved? Is it making a play with someone in scoring position? What about making a diving play to save a hit with no one on base? How do we know if he doesn't make that play if a guy would have scored or not? How many of his outs ended an inning, that prevented another guy from coming up. How much does it play into a pitchers mind if some of those diving plays ended being hits, and now the next guy he has to pitch from the strech instead of the full wind up. So many different things could have happened base on a single hit happening, even if not one was on base at that time.

 

I love all the stats you use, but this is one stat that is useless to use. However I know I am fine with them trading him, because of the money they may save, but it will also depend on who his replacement is.

 

 

I really don't know how accurate it is, but I think the point of it all is that the larger the sample size, the higher the confidence interval for the stat you are using as a predictor. If you don't buy defensive sabermetrics, you should look at studies on how some catchers get a higher percentage of strikes called for their pitchers. Not a big Yadier Molina fan personally, but he's got a pretty good clip of doing this while Ryan Doumit is horrible at it. Point being, I think it's definitely an inexact science, but is a pretty good predictor, especially when compared to the ole' eyeball test.

 

Statistics can tell someone who doesn't know the last thing about you things that you probably don't even know about yourself. Know this isn't baseball, but here's a good example: Target was predicting when women were pregnant with remarkable accuracy based on their purchasing habits, often times before the women themselves had even told their husbands/significant others and family. I know pregnancy isn't baseball, but when a guy consistently can't turn a 4-6-3 double play when the leadoff man is on first and a left hander is batting and you have 100 points as a reference, it's probably a better thing than having the human mind try to recall all 100 instances and break down all the factors the way an algorithm could.

Edited November 16, 201312 yr by JokersWild24

I know pregnancy isn't baseball, but when a guy consistently can't turn a 4-6-3 double play when the leadoff man is on first and a left hander is batting and you have 100 points as a reference, it's probably a better thing than having the human mind try to recall all 100 instances and break down all the factors the way an algorithm could.

 

Here's the problem that I have relying solely on statistics in the example you gave...there's no context. With statistics, it's simply a black and white, binary 1 or zero, yes or no type of world. Either he makes the play or he doesn't. But, in the real world, it helps to know if you've got someone at the plate with Billy Hamilton-like speed, or if they're lumbering down Ryan Hannigan-esque. Also, who's playing shortstop? A 10 year veteran with a couple of Gold Gloves under his belt, or a journeyman who's been with the team for only a year? How about the first baseman? Hands/feet of stone? Or one that's able to pick one out of the dirt and bail his teammate out?

 

Listen, we're talking about Major League talent here. Probably 90% of the players can make 90-95% of the plays in their sleep. I mean, they're in the big leagues for a reason here. They can usually make even the hard plays look easy. But, it's that other 5-10% of the plays that separate the best from the rest. It's when you see a line drive ball hit in the gap that, in the brief split second you think that it's a sure base hit, suddenly the fielder gets to it and turns that hit into an out. Or when you see someone flying down the line (a la Hamilton) and a third baseman come in and bare hand the ball and get him by a foot. It's the ultimate in the eye-test. Because not all outs (or even opportunities) are created equal...and therefore are hard to be converted statistically.