The Ghost

Being that I saw the play you are referring to, the play was not in that officials "primary" are of the floor. The play was in the center officials "primary" the the Lead official having "secondary" coverage. The whistle was late due to him giving the center a chance to see the play (or get straight lined as we used to say, which it looked like he did) and then Lead came with the call. Right call. Better late and right than early and wrong. First games I got a chance to see in the tournament since moving here and retiring from the game. Really thought that the refs did a great job. Good no calls when some contact had nothing to do with the outcome of a play. Much better than we used to get in Tennessee! :flame:

Well, being from the "old school" of officiating, we did not have any instant replay available, even in Division One, until recently. Even now, there are conferences that have no replay capabilities (although it is changing from what I can gather). Mainly the reason high school cannot go to it is because of consistency. Granted you have more technology available during the tournaments (usually), but the officials would have no idea how to use the equipment correctly (most of the time). During the regular season it just would not work due to the technological barriers to most schools. It is not that difficult to look at a tape and decide good or no good. The trouble I see is having the angles (clocks ect) available and the replay capabilities. :thumb:

Now, let me say straight up that I do not want this to turn into a giant "I know it better than you" debate. I read a few comments about a game yesterday and felt that a little insight was necessary from an old stripes perspective. Now with regard to a block charge: I thought about this for a while and decided this; the reason fans think the stripes get every (well not every but alot) of these calls wrong is that they are watching the ball, not the defenders. When I went to camps (oh that seems a long time ago), the people that were there instructing us (you see/saw many of them on TV every night) always told us to watch the defender, not the dribbler. Watching the dribbler will result in most (not all) of the "block/charge" situations to be called blocks. If one cannot see the defender, one cannot make an accurate call. The defender is allowed to move to "maintain his/her defensive position". If the defender beats the dribbler to the spot (that is his/her feet are down), there still can be movement in the upper torso area of the defender. Also remember this; the offensive player still has to be "under control" and not using his/her forearm to clear out. So, remember; officials that have the proper perspective (ie he/she has attended a quality camp), most likely the officials are getting the call right 95% of the time. But you have no idea who those people are? I'll give you a hint; if officials are calling the majority of the contact by the dribbler/defensive players "player control" fouls; chances are they are one of the better ones. Now that does not apply to all situations (there are teams out there that just don't have the speed to "get to the spot" and you might see alot of blocks called), but for the majority (oh who am I kidding 90%) of the "good" officials, they get the calls right. Just trust them! :flame:

When I was in the stripes, if the coach refuesed to leave, I had the timer tell me when one minute had elapsed, then it was game over. Never had to do it, but we did get into the seconds left a couple times! :ylsuper:

Throwing money at the problem is not the answer. Retired as I may be, I know this. Training is the only answer to getting more qualified officials out into the games. There is no substitute for taking a little time away from the summer and learning what one might not know. It helped me way back in the day, when there were not many camps to go to. If the state would mandate that all officials have to go to a camp outside the state every two to four years, you would see a dramatic increase in well officiated games. There will always be the guys that are just out there for the money (as pitiful as it may be) or for the glory. Some people just love getting yelled at! :banana:

Then you would be getting back to the situation of "contracting" officials like they do in Indiana. I have friends that still officiate and they have contracts years ahead of times for certain schools and games. Talk about a biased system. Somone talked earlier about letting officials rate each other. That would be a hoot. Some people would lose friends if they are honest with people. I had to tell a guy once that he was in over his head and not to do a game (it was a preseason scrimmage). Hardest thing I ever had to do, but it did make my decision easier when I dedcided to hang it up. I knew it was time to go when the speed of the game had picked up and I no longer could get in position. Desire was still there, but the wheels were shot! Some people never quite learn that however! There are a few D 1 guys out there that need to hang it up for that fact alone! :fire:

Yea....he is somewhat on the side of confidence, but let me tell you....he is a better officials than some of the names I have seen on this post. When I used to call he was a young up and comer. Now he works some of the bigger games in the COUNTRY...not just this state. You do not get to that level without knowing what you are doing. There are some very fine officials on this post. There are also ones that just worry about what LOOKS like the correct call, not what IS the correct call. The reason some officials get that "I'm bigger than the game" reputation is that those of us who called (call) what is there, not what "looks funny". Someday when we can take the coaches votes out of who goes to District, Region and such, the climate may change so that the people that know who the good officials are can let them get where they belong. And I think there were 20 + there that game..... :fire:

Long ago I had a coach tell me the same thing....he did hit the bus before his team did..... I always hated giving both technicals...but just like Tom Cruise said in "Risky Business"......"Sometimes you just have to say what the **heck**"! :laugh:

I said nothing about "hearing contact". Alot of times back in the day, things "looked" ugly or it "looked" like a player walked. The meaning is it had to actually "be there" for it to be called. Sometimes there is a blocked shot, and the force of the block causes the player to go to the floor. That "looks like" a foul, but really is not. Hope that clarifies what I ment. :banana:

Officials that know what they are doing can evaluate contact. When I used to run the floor, if the ball was blocked and then a little contact was made (emphasis on the word "little"), I almost never called a foul. Now, there are people out there that do not know how to evaluate the contact that is made....if it "looks like a foul" they call it. It should be a foul before it is called. and Yes...women can block shots, play "D" and do all the things that the guys can do. The question to the officials has to be...do you have the guts to not blow the whistle when it just "looks like a foul" and take the crowd booing and the coach eating on you..... :flame:

I cannot say for sure, but most likely, if the KBA has been sold, they can still have at least some of these tournaments here in Lexington. Many cities use HS facilities (like Lexington used to for the HS state), which is better (IMO). You have seperate facilities and more space. :banana:

I heard (totally unconfirmed) that another facility was either being planned or going to be opend in Lex sometime. If I find out any details, I will pass them along. Rumor has it it is a former UK player that is in the mix! :thumb:

It's not a "new rule". Displacement of a player has always been a foul.

Well, I used to ref a little myself and I have one from a game that worked to perfection: I was working with a younger official and the tap was tipped out of bounds. He got the call right and some guy from the front row yelled out "they missed one already". Now, in a freshman game (that will tell you how long ago it really was as I am really old now) there are few people there, so I took note and went about my business. He rode the kid for the whole first quarter. I was puitting the ball inbounds for the start of the second quarter (they guy just happened to be on the first row mid court) and started to talk to me and complain about the kid. I told him this: "Sir the best thing for you to do is quite down and cheer for your team and worry less about what we do". He said "I'm leaving here soon anyway". I smiled and said "I know you are"! He there proceded to ride me for about on minute and then was removed from the gym! Funny story and true as well! But the bottom line is that parents should encourage his/her children to respect what officials do and learn themselves that nothing they do can make the game better. It only makes the officials that actually pay attention to that stuff distracted (and believe me some of them do not need any help with that) and sometimes do an even worse job. I never paid attention to the crowd unless someone got really vulgar and then I just went over to game administration and had them take care of it. Worked well for over 20 years! :ylsuper:

I was thinking all of these things! GREAT POST! Just to add a little to the ref section: You are exactly right about the speed of the game the the danger within. Two officials just cannot be effective in the game of today/the future. It also allows some officials that would have retired to contiune to officiate a little longer (although it didn't keep me in I am REALLY OLD)! One more thing: removing the foul count won't help that situation. That's what one of those 6 assistants is for. But I will tell you this; I never failed to warn a coach when I officiated for saying something like that. Next inference WHACK! :flame:

Another point is that when a player is in and out of the paint, the count starts over. One foot out , other in the air, it starts over...Shot goes up, count starts over. I heard it all the time when a shot came off the rim and the same team got it back "hey ref call three seconds"! Just proves that fans are SOOOOO biased and do not know the rules (or the intent of the rule)! :argue:

Well, being as I don't officiate anymore, I think you are correct that it is called less and less, but that has to do more with they type of offenses being run that it does with it not being called. More three point shots and motion offenses make the big post player underneath almost like a dinosaur. Very few times does it need to be called. But it is an effective call if you have post players that like to camp out and bang. Sometimes you can avoid having to call fouls and get away with a violation. Call it once early and most likely the officials do not have to call it again. At least that has been my experience "back in the day"! :flame:

Great post! :flame:

So tell me, what is the difference? Basketball is basketball. Athletes are athletes. The GAME is called no differently at these levels. The level of the ATHLETE is what makes the game different. Those officials that can call contact PROPERLY can do any level and be successful. And if you notice the post, I said college LEVEL games. I did not mention a COLLEGE GAME. Something like a Lex Cath/Scott Co. match up is a COLLEGE LEVEL game. Either of those teams could give a great game to many of the small colleges around Kentucky. :thumb:

Greetings from The Ghost! After reading several posts, I thought this would be a GREAT time for me to post a request/plea/onmykneesbegging type thread. As those of you who have seen my posts before, I used to officiate. I have posted before about the need for more three person officiating in Kentucky and with some of the things I have read, now seemed the best time to bring out a few points: This first one is for coaches: as you see now, three person is not going away. Time to start using it all season in all games. Then you will see that the things that are called in the tournament, become easier to see if you have 15-20 other games to make corrections on what kind of fouls will be called. Now, many of you might think that more fouls are called; this is not the case. They are just different kinds of calls and do remember, in the region especially, you have the cream of the crop in the area. Many of these people working have worked college level games and know what to look for. There have been numerous studies on how many fouls were called in a two person Vs a three person game, and over the course of a season full of games, it was about one more foul per game with three. Second is for fans; believe it or not we love you (most of the time, hey you pay us)! I really never had much of an issue with fans during my career. Most of you don't really know what we are looking for or where we are looking anyway. You are watching the action of the ballhandler, cause that is what you are suppoed to do. You didn't pay upwards of 10 bucks to watch the defense did you? So when we make a call that dosen't seem right to you take heart. We probably got it right, especially in the region tournament. Block/charges are the hardest to call (well not really, but I am practicing appeasment here) and are the most controversial. If the referee is good enough to be in the region, he/she is probably going to get this call right 99.9% of the time. We as officials are trained (well if they are trained PROPERLY that is) to watch the defense and think like the offense. I mean really, we know the point of the offensive team right? They have to score! The defensive people are the ones that we have to keep an eye on, due to the fact that they are not as predictable (sometimes). So, when you see a block/charge situation in the region this week, please think about this. If the contact happens in the chest area, if the referee has done the job they have been trained to do, most likely it will be a offensive foul. Yes the defense CAN move to maintain proper defensive position as long as they get to the spot first. Yes the defense CAN jump in his/her own vertical plane and be off the ground and it still be an offensive foul. There CAN be an awful lot of contact and there be no whistle. If the defense if playing good defense, there will be MANY situation where there is "significant" contact and nothing is called. I mean there are big men/women in this game and there are smaller ones. If a 5'8" 140 lb guard leaps into a 6'6" 230 lb forward/center and the big guy dosen't move but the little guy goes down, is it better to penelize the little guy? Just a few thoughts on the matters at hand. :flame:

He/she needs to turn in the whistle. Call a foul on one or both of them, not call nothing then react like that when the player is upset. I would have been too! :flame:

A1 can come back in and control the ball provided he/she re-establishes himself/herself back in bounds, unless the referee deems he/she went out of bounds intentionally. Usually one would see this play as the momentum of the player carrying the player out of bounds, so the play would most llikely stand. Now he/she could not dribble if he/she had dribbled before the interrupted dribble. As for the one comment of the play on the sideline of not calling a foul; it really depends on the type of game one has. I usee the technique many times to avoid calling fouls IF the game could handle the call. If it was a bloodbath, foul. These situations are just some of the many that seperate an "official" from a "great official". So it would depend on what kind of crew the game had as to whether it was really a callable foul. :banana:

ooooooooo. Another post I can sink my teeth into! When I was on the floor, the crowd was a very low priority. Especially when they were not right on top of me! I felt like they paid their money and deserved a few "shots" at me. So comments, like raindrops off a ducks back, slid where they were supposed to, the gutter! Now, if a fan happened to be close enough to the floor, I can think of very few times I spoke to them or even acknowledged them. I do recall one time I gave a suttle little comment to one man on the front row: I had been asked to do a JV game as well as having the varsity game afterward (one of the JV refs got hurt or something), so I did it, as it was a long trip and geting there early was no problem for me. There was a gent on the front row who was giving me a little more than I usually take (said in the kindest of tones), so I merely said this to him: "Sir, I'll be here for the Varsity game as well...would you like to be"? He shut up, sat there and said nothing for the rest of the night! As for thin skinned Refs: There are alot of them. Some can't stand critisism of any kind. Some of them just have to throw their weight around (and boy is that a big throw for some of them I have seen lately)! I never threw a fan out unless I felt that my safety was at an issue or they called mom names. Some throw people out just for calling them pitiful! Heck, there were nights I WAS pitiful! I didn't need HIM/HER telling me that! Not every official can practice "tunnel vision" when it comes to being on the floor. I treated fans like coaches sometimes: If they were coaching and things, I left them alone. If the coaches started coaching me, then I paid a little more attention to them to see if I could help them undstand what I was doing. If they got totally out of control, they got one chance to correct his/her behavior. If they didn't take the chance, they got to watch the game film/highlights later! Hope this helps (and gives a chuckle or two)! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well, the regionals kind of take care of themselves, each having a #1 and a #2, which makes the matchps easier. Mainly I am addressing the districts and the Sweet 16. If a team that gets the "random draw" #2 district, then need to get knocked out in the first game of the region (usually). :flame:

Basically it is the same system for ranking the RPI of college teams. Not quite as complex, but still a better way than drawing a number out of a hat! :laugh: