The Ghost

Why is it "the only way to go? Gotta have more information than that to back up what you think! :banana:

Just looking down some of the district matchups, I see a glaring need in this area. It is time for the KHSAA to set a mandate that all tournaments will be seeded, including the Sweet 16. I have watched for years as the top two teams in a given district draw each other in the first game. Also, some of the Sweet 16 draws matched the top two teams (at least on paper) in the first round. IMO, this just has to stop. Teams work hard all season, some are far superior to others and yet, they do not get the chance to move on because of a random draw. One team who has a losing record gets the chance to go to the region and that just is not fair! What does the rest of BGP think on this?

Having three officials on the floor makes the game better. As I posted before, even three meidocre officials can control a game better than 2. You will simply not have enough officials continue to be able to officiate w/o three person becoming the prevelant officiating system. That extra set of eyes comes in handy when you have a "thug" on the floor that just tries to get away with what he/she can. With only two officials, little things like illegal screens and such get missed. Then one player gets upset because he got a "bow" in the head that one of the officials missed (talking two person here). Then you have a melee' and ejections. Then the officials get blamed for letting the game get to "physical". So three is better than two. Take my word for it! :thumb:

I do realize that sometimes calls are missed, but a hit to the head should never be passed on. I really hated calling "and ones", but when they involved a hit to the head, I called them every time. And do please raise that money...with three all the time I might strap it back on and ref again! Then you'd have a least one good (abet older) official there once and a while! :ylsuper:

Well, I have to disagree with your boycott! Having been in officiating when two officials were the norm, one had to guess at calls and missed cirtical calls that clean up the game. It is not always that we/they miss things with three officials on the floor, it is that sometimes we pass on things that are minimal (ie a slight bump after the release of a shot that goes in and had nothing to do with the play). Now, I agree that there are officials out there that are incompetent, lazy, "homers" and just flat out fat and out of shape. But, they are willing to go out and put up with the comments, travel, time away from their familes and just plain ole idiot fans, so you have to give them credit there. So before you go bashing what they do, sign up and try it for a year. Make yourself some extra money for a vacation (cause you will need it after the season). Another thing about three officials; usually the pay is 10 dollars less per official for a three person game (ie if they make 60 dollars for a two person, it would be 50 per for a three person game). So the cost is not 33% more. The extra body on the floor (no matter how incompetent) makes for a smoother game for all. Now, if you have the fortitude to come on in and join the people that now officiate games, I can hook you up in your area. Heck, now that I am retired from the game, I'll even help you get started. I'll give you pointers next season and make sure that you see what you are missing! :fire:

I'll say that it is a 4 team race. Add Henry Clay to the mix. They beat LAC rather easily in the 5/3 and were it not for a complete meltdown in the 3rd quarter, would have given Catholic everything the wanted in the finals (and did in the first half). Scott County is beatable on a given night, so it is not improbable that you see a LC v HCHS final.

Even when the ball hits the rim, there is a possibility that the shot will still go in. When it goes over the backboard, the team last in control of the shot is what you go by. If the ball comes back into the playing court (after hitting the rim) then there is no team control. Sounds funny but that is the best I can do to explain it. You also see alot of officials call a back court violation on an inbound pass that gets deflected into the backcourt by the team inbounding. There is no team control on this either. I used to have to explain this one to many coaches, even college ones! :flame:

Air pressure in the ball has more to do with that than the rim. If it has too much, you get those "long rebounds". Just right (kind of flat to some people) and the ball will bounce more and go in more. Just a "HINT" from an old broken down official to the younger ones reading out there! :jump:

Well, there are many problems with having a shot clock in HS sports: 1) Cost. While it isn't all that expensive, there are costs associated such as an additional clock operator, mounting the clocks ect. 2) Officials. There are not too many officials at the HS level that would be able to make sure the clocks operated properly. Many of them barely watch the game clocks now. It takes an above average game manager-type official to be able to maintain effective game management during a game. 3) Rules. You would have to have the rule book add a section and also add all the situations that come from different plays that happen during a game. There are many of these and most HS officials just cannot handle the stress. I put this mainly an officiating perspective, as I used to have to handle these situations. Believe me, it is a good thing that HS does not have one. Maybe someday, but it will take a year or two of implimentation and practice before it could even be adopted.

Unless the technical occurs before the horn sounds, you would start an extra period with a technical, then award the ball to the offended team opposite the scorers table, with the possession arrow toward the offending team. Same principle as if you started the game with a "T" for dunking or some administrative thing like not having the book prepared by the 10 minute mark or having the wrong number in the book. :thumb: I like the college rule better, because you still have the jump ball to start the overtime period.

Now here is a post I like! Very true that 2 person crews cannot keep up with most games. Three person crews do not work enough three person games to know where calls SHOULD come from. Remedy this by donating or raising a few hundred more dollars for your local schools so they will use three person. That is the excuse I hear from my friends that still work. Schools are using the extra $40 or so dollars per game it costs as an excuse not to use three officials (well some coaches do not like it either, I think a post above mentioned that)! :flame:

I suppose you never make a mistake at your job either? OVer the course of a season, some officials do 45-75 basketball games. There are about 120 playing days in a basketball season (providing the official also does college ball). When I was on the hardwood, I strived to get 90-95% of my callsright on any given night. Sometimes I would get 99% right...sometimes 85%. Some of that statistic may have to do with the table crew (clock not starting, misinforming the officials of the foul totals, ect), so do not be so quick to say that it was the officials fault. They also have to communicate among themselves, which from my experience, is a hit or miss proposition. There were some officials that just don't have the communication skills to be effective. Oh, and the officials were correct in stopping play if they have knowledge they did not award a merited free throw....it is called a correctable error! By the way, which game were you referring to? Just curious as to where you see the majority of your games? :ylsuper:

Maybe the last three games that had officials that have a hard time tying his/her shoelaces to start the game? Maybe you are the better official and the teams are just not use to seeing quality? I always tell people I train to blow the whistle first, explain to the coach later. Talking to players is a good way to let three fouls go and blow the forth. Causes too many problems. Not to say every situation is like that, but say I have an early 3 second call (w/o talking to the players), do you really think that player will stand around in there again? He/she is more likely to do it again if one talks with the voice. If one talks with the whistle, players tend to listen more! As to the rules: Officials are given a rule book, which covers more guidelines for certain things than absolutes. They are given points of emphasis to help them understand how the game SHOULD be played. Then the officials have to use judgement, mechanics and hustle to determine fouls, violations ect. You are correct about the pay. Higher pay means nothing in getting quality. :walk:

From what I have seen in boys basketball, it (the handcheck) is a difficult call to make. The players are so athletic and able to withstand more contact, hence the problem. I think it takes a really quality official to determing what has put a player at a disadvantage and what has not. I also agree that officials would love to "let the kids play", but we all know that sometimes they just don't want to. They want to be lazy and play with their hands and not their feet! They want to set screens with their elbows and end up hitting someone in the mouth with it. If those situations are not handled properly, then you get your "out of control" games. Officials love to let the kids decide the games; it is unfortunate that sometimes they cannot.

One part of this post will urge you all to go to the girls forum and read a few posts about officials there. As to officials "taking over games": Being an ex official and still training them today, I can say with relative ease that yes, there are times that officials call way too much in a game. But, it really depends on when the calls are made. I have posted this before and now it is as true as it was before; Womens college officials call the game fairly well most of the time. Mens college officials are starting to get into the system of calling contact that needs to be called to "CONTROL" the game. I have seen more "player control" (ie charges for all you bleacher bums!) fouls called this season already in the few mens games I have watched than in any other season in the past 5 years. Finally they are getting the message that when two players hit the floor, sometimes you have to call a foul! There is a difference between "taking over" a game and "controling" a game. If calls that need to be made are made early, coaches and players have a chance to adjust to that particular crew. Yes, you will find variance in how different crews officiate games. No way to avoid that, due to the fact that some officials just will not change the way they do things for anyone. Yea, that's bad and we need get them out, but that is a supervisors problem (in both HS and college). In HS, you do not have near the officiating talent pool to choose from. Yes, there are good officials in every region, but in the smaller associations they are few and far between. So coaches have to deal with different crews just like they deal with different teams; kind of like the "Forrest Gump" theory. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get! Some crews will call hand checks and so called "ticky-tack" stuff....some will not. Sometimes they have to pass on that stuff so as to get other more serious violations and keep the game under control. Some games the officials have to "control" the game by calling 50 fouls (my personal best for a game was 57 in HS, 65 in college - the whole crew, not me personally). Those kind of games no matter what you do, teams will not stop fouling and if you do not keep calling the fouls, fights break out ect. Then things get really ugly. So when you see officials "taking over" a game, maybe they have to. Maybe the players just are not as athletically gifted as some others and they just have to keep calling the fouls due to that lack of talent. Think about that next time you see officials "controlling" a game! One other thing about the money issue.....more money is not the answer. That would keep some of the "bottom feeders" around. They are just there for the money anyway and it shows most nights! Do not get me wrong, officials deserve all the money they can get, it is just not the best answer for this particular issue! :dancingpa

None of us "have to". Some of us did (do) it because we cared (care) about the game and want the kids to have the best possible experience. Just like Stu in Lexington says "IT'S ABOUT KIDS"! :thumb:

It is no different than classes/training one would do for his/her "real" job. Yes, the costs are high depending on the camp one goes to, but there are camps in this state that charge less than $300 and you get high quality instruction. It is all a matter of what the individual official wants out of the experience. If one prefers to use officiating just for some extra cash w/o putting in time and effort to get better, that will show on the court. If one wants to go to the "show" in March, one must put forth the effort in the off-season just like the players that get there do! :thumb:

Well, being an ex official I could make a few comments to every post, but I will generalize them in the following ways: 1) Most of your so called "good" officials in any association work a higher level of ball. To accomplish this, many of them have attended camp (no not the local camp that their supervisor puts on, but a national camp with people from all over including overseas). So saying that some are not well trained at what they do is inaccurate. 2) We are all held accountable for what we do (or did in my case; well, all is not accurate either, it depends on the supervisor of the respective association). I know friends that have lost games in the past due to blown rules. College officials are under even more of a microscope. Tapes of games are sent regularly to supervisors if there are problems in a game. 3) There is no way to get two (or three) good officials on all games. The best of the best get the best games of the night and then the supervisors have to go from there. People in the business have to be able to learn from mistakes. Keep making the same mistakes and out one goes. 4) Yes, some officials have to "be the game" and call things that are out of reach for them. Ego trips are common in the business. I always tell the people I train (trained) don't think you saw something. Know you saw it. Even more so in a three person system; someone has a look at the play. Three lets you not have to guess at certain calls that you had to in two person. 5) As to the scratching post above....coaches hold grudges far more often than officials do. I wouldn't care if I had tossed a coach three nights before, he/she got a fresh start the next game. So as for certain people being "corrupt", I have a real problem with that wording. Officials don't do this for money (unless you do if for your main income), so saying we would hold something against a person/team for prestige or recognition is also an incorrect statement. 6) Get your moneys worth. I never let a crowd get to me back in "the day". If yelling at us keeps you from doing so to your wife/GF/mistress or going home and kicking your dog, go for it. Just keep it clean. :dancingpa

Belts? Those things went out with the Ford Model T didn't they? We had a guy at a ref camp many years ago calling with a large amount of change in his pockets. Andre' Pattillo was the clinician on the court and said he sounded like a wells fargo truck going down the street. So he had a nickname the rest of camp! :dancingpa

That's why officials should call the same way every night in every game they do. If they do that, most are at peace with themselves and that is all that matters! Sometimes you had 20 fouls and sometimes 60. It all depends on the game itself, but if an officials will stick to the guidelines and call games the same way, then the players decide and we fade away, like the old striped shirts we are! :laugh:

1) That should be called. Two hands on the dribbler is a call that HAS to be made early. Also the "handcheck/armbar" has become popular. That has to be called early and often as well. Good crews will call this and bad fans (and radio commentators) call it "ticky-tac", but who cares about fans and commentators? :thumb: 2) Sounds like the ref needs to get into his/her rule book. No team control on a rebound therefore you shoot if the team is in the bonus. But also remember; there is no call as "over the back". Plenty of times I heard that yelled when a more athletic player jumped higher and took a rebound away from a less athletic (or lazy) player. Displacement of a defender (or other contact that puts the player in position at a disadvantage) in position must take place for a rebound foul to be made (IMO)! I think I need to get back on the court and ref again! Seems there are places I could work and get to the tourney! :laugh:

I love opportunities to get back into the swing of things. Being an ex-official, there is one key element to basketball and it seems refs are the only ones who know this. "Physical" basketball is good. We used that term to describe good defense that is legal and offenses that can set good screens that the "D" runs into (and yes it looks kind of hard sometimes). I can understand from the stands things look very different. Fans are under the impression that all the officials are looking at is the person with the ball and the person guarding them. This is far from the case (at least if you have a crew that knows what they are doing)! Just because someone falls down after geting a shot blocked dosen't mean that he/she was fouled. Many times the momentum of a shooter causes them to be slightly off balance and then the shot gets blocked, causing them to go to the floor. Sometimes he/she is just plain clumsey and falls down on his/her own. Great officials can tell the difference between "physical" play and "rough" play. If you watch games that have many fouls called early in the post and on the ball-handler, you can bet you have a crew that knows the difference between those two types of games. If you have a crew that calls nothing but fouls on shots and around the ball, watch out! That is the game that will get too "rough". Watch a few games and see if you agree! :fire:

In the past, girls AAU has used shot clocks in the National tournaments! 30 seconds just like college (women's that is)! :walk:

Well, I think that other changes would have to be made as well, like going to 16 minute halves instead of quarters. I do agree that it would be difficult in the beginning with the cost and having quality personel to man the clock. Being an ex-college official, there would also be an issue with the referees being aware of shot clock type situations. It takes a really good (and I mean better than the best you see night after night in high school) to keep track of game management type situations. I have seen situations where the officials could not even make sure the game clock started, let alone be thinking of two situations with clocks in the same instant (yea, compare this to walking and chewing gum, some just can't get it down)! I used to think it would be a good idea, but since I have changed my position. It would be difficult for most of the people involved. I agree that some of the games need it (I HATE to see stalling and such in games) but the logistics would just be too complicated for most schools.

Never said he was not a "class act"! Just not as "god-like" as some played him out to be.