Thoughts on Regionals

[The Ghost]

Greetings from The Ghost! After reading several posts, I thought this would be a GREAT time for me to post a request/plea/onmykneesbegging type thread.

 

As those of you who have seen my posts before, I used to officiate. I have posted before about the need for more three person officiating in Kentucky and with some of the things I have read, now seemed the best time to bring out a few points:

 

This first one is for coaches: as you see now, three person is not going away. Time to start using it all season in all games. Then you will see that the things that are called in the tournament, become easier to see if you have 15-20 other games to make corrections on what kind of fouls will be called. Now, many of you might think that more fouls are called; this is not the case. They are just different kinds of calls and do remember, in the region especially, you have the cream of the crop in the area. Many of these people working have worked college level games and know what to look for. There have been numerous studies on how many fouls were called in a two person Vs a three person game, and over the course of a season full of games, it was about one more foul per game with three.

 

Second is for fans; believe it or not we love you (most of the time, hey you pay us)! I really never had much of an issue with fans during my career. Most of you don't really know what we are looking for or where we are looking anyway. You are watching the action of the ballhandler, cause that is what you are suppoed to do. You didn't pay upwards of 10 bucks to watch the defense did you? So when we make a call that dosen't seem right to you take heart. We probably got it right, especially in the region tournament.

 

Block/charges are the hardest to call (well not really, but I am practicing appeasment here) and are the most controversial. If the referee is good enough to be in the region, he/she is probably going to get this call right 99.9% of the time. We as officials are trained (well if they are trained PROPERLY that is) to watch the defense and think like the offense. I mean really, we know the point of the offensive team right? They have to score! The defensive people are the ones that we have to keep an eye on, due to the fact that they are not as predictable (sometimes). So, when you see a block/charge situation in the region this week, please think about this.

 

If the contact happens in the chest area, if the referee has done the job they have been trained to do, most likely it will be a offensive foul. Yes the defense CAN move to maintain proper defensive position as long as they get to the spot first. Yes the defense CAN jump in his/her own vertical plane and be off the ground and it still be an offensive foul.

 

There CAN be an awful lot of contact and there be no whistle. If the defense if playing good defense, there will be MANY situation where there is "significant" contact and nothing is called. I mean there are big men/women in this game and there are smaller ones. If a 5'8" 140 lb guard leaps into a 6'6" 230 lb forward/center and the big guy dosen't move but the little guy goes down, is it better to penelize the little guy?

 

Just a few thoughts on the matters at hand.

 

:flame:

[basketball peanut]

The problem with these three-man crews that do regional tournaments is that they do college. College basketball is not high school basketball. I will say it again, COLLEGE BASKETBALL IS NOT HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL. These college officials have no idea how to call high school ballgames.

[The Ghost]

The problem with these three-man crews that do regional tournaments is that they do college. College basketball is not high school basketball. I will say it again, COLLEGE BASKETBALL IS NOT HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL. These college officials have no idea how to call high school ballgames.

 

So tell me, what is the difference?

 

Basketball is basketball. Athletes are athletes.

 

The GAME is called no differently at these levels. The level of the ATHLETE is what makes the game different. Those officials that can call contact PROPERLY can do any level and be successful.

 

And if you notice the post, I said college LEVEL games. I did not mention a COLLEGE GAME. Something like a Lex Cath/Scott Co. match up is a COLLEGE LEVEL game. Either of those teams could give a great game to many of the small colleges around Kentucky.

 

:thumb:

[Mustang]

The problem with these three-man crews that do regional tournaments is that they do college. College basketball is not high school basketball. I will say it again, COLLEGE BASKETBALL IS NOT HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL. These college officials have no idea how to call high school ballgames.

What makes you think that they do college basketball???

 

They are the same officials that have been working the high school games all season. Only a very small percentage of the officials working high school games also work college games.

 

In reading your posts on two different forums you seem to know more and more about less and less.

[The Ghost]

What makes you think that they do college basketball???

 

They are the same officials that have been working the high school games all season. Only a very small percentage of the officials working high school games also work college games.

 

In reading your posts on two different forums you seem to know more and more about less and less.

 

Great post!

 

:flame:

[bricklayer]

Greetings from The Ghost! After reading several posts, I thought this would be a GREAT time for me to post a request/plea/onmykneesbegging type thread.

 

As those of you who have seen my posts before, I used to officiate. I have posted before about the need for more three person officiating in Kentucky and with some of the things I have read, now seemed the best time to bring out a few points:

 

This first one is for coaches: as you see now, three person is not going away. Time to start using it all season in all games. Then you will see that the things that are called in the tournament, become easier to see if you have 15-20 other games to make corrections on what kind of fouls will be called. Now, many of you might think that more fouls are called; this is not the case. They are just different kinds of calls and do remember, in the region especially, you have the cream of the crop in the area. Many of these people working have worked college level games and know what to look for. There have been numerous studies on how many fouls were called in a two person Vs a three person game, and over the course of a season full of games, it was about one more foul per game with three.

 

Second is for fans; believe it or not we love you (most of the time, hey you pay us)! I really never had much of an issue with fans during my career. Most of you don't really know what we are looking for or where we are looking anyway. You are watching the action of the ballhandler, cause that is what you are suppoed to do. You didn't pay upwards of 10 bucks to watch the defense did you? So when we make a call that dosen't seem right to you take heart. We probably got it right, especially in the region tournament.

 

Block/charges are the hardest to call (well not really, but I am practicing appeasment here) and are the most controversial. If the referee is good enough to be in the region, he/she is probably going to get this call right 99.9% of the time. We as officials are trained (well if they are trained PROPERLY that is) to watch the defense and think like the offense. I mean really, we know the point of the offensive team right? They have to score! The defensive people are the ones that we have to keep an eye on, due to the fact that they are not as predictable (sometimes). So, when you see a block/charge situation in the region this week, please think about this.

 

If the contact happens in the chest area, if the referee has done the job they have been trained to do, most likely it will be a offensive foul. Yes the defense CAN move to maintain proper defensive position as long as they get to the spot first. Yes the defense CAN jump in his/her own vertical plane and be off the ground and it still be an offensive foul.

 

There CAN be an awful lot of contact and there be no whistle. If the defense if playing good defense, there will be MANY situation where there is "significant" contact and nothing is called. I mean there are big men/women in this game and there are smaller ones. If a 5'8" 140 lb guard leaps into a 6'6" 230 lb forward/center and the big guy dosen't move but the little guy goes down, is it better to penelize the little guy?

 

Just a few thoughts on the matters at hand.

 

:flame:

 

I think the verticality rule may be one of the most missed. At game speed you see someone jump straight up and the offense creates contact, it may appear that the defender is fouling. I like this post because it sheds some light for people that have no idea about officiating.

 

I have a question for you Ghost. In your personal opinion what do you think about the 3 second call? Do you look for it when your on the baseline, or is it something that is just looked at when someone literally doesn't move out of the paint for a few consecutive possessions?

 

It seems like over the last four of five years this is being called less and less.

[The Ghost]

I think the verticality rule may be one of the most missed. At game speed you see someone jump straight up and the offense creates contact, it may appear that the defender is fouling. I like this post because it sheds some light for people that have no idea about officiating.

 

I have a question for you Ghost. In your personal opinion what do you think about the 3 second call? Do you look for it when your on the baseline, or is it something that is just looked at when someone literally doesn't move out of the paint for a few consecutive possessions?

 

It seems like over the last four of five years this is being called less and less.

 

Well, being as I don't officiate anymore, I think you are correct that it is called less and less, but that has to do more with they type of offenses being run that it does with it not being called. More three point shots and motion offenses make the big post player underneath almost like a dinosaur. Very few times does it need to be called. But it is an effective call if you have post players that like to camp out and bang. Sometimes you can avoid having to call fouls and get away with a violation. Call it once early and most likely the officials do not have to call it again. At least that has been my experience "back in the day"!

 

:flame:

[bricklayer]

Well, being as I don't officiate anymore, I think you are correct that it is called less and less, but that has to do more with they type of offenses being run that it does with it not being called. More three point shots and motion offenses make the big post player underneath almost like a dinosaur. Very few times does it need to be called. But it is an effective call if you have post players that like to camp out and bang. Sometimes you can avoid having to call fouls and get away with a violation. Call it once early and most likely the officials do not have to call it again. At least that has been my experience "back in the day"!

 

:flame:

 

Thanks Ghost. That does make a lot of sense and you're right if it is called early it takes care of a lot of problems. I still think that because of these offenses this call is overlooked a lot because the other four players may not stop moving in and out. I also like the point you made about calling it to avoid calling a foul. This can be done in a lot of circumstances, and in most cases I wish it were done more.

[The Ghost]

Thanks Ghost. That does make a lot of sense and you're right if it is called early it takes care of a lot of problems. I still think that because of these offenses this call is overlooked a lot because the other four players may not stop moving in and out. I also like the point you made about calling it to avoid calling a foul. This can be done in a lot of circumstances, and in most cases I wish it were done more.

 

Another point is that when a player is in and out of the paint, the count starts over. One foot out , other in the air, it starts over...Shot goes up, count starts over. I heard it all the time when a shot came off the rim and the same team got it back "hey ref call three seconds"! Just proves that fans are SOOOOO biased and do not know the rules (or the intent of the rule)!

 

:argue:

[Butterfly Baby]

What makes you think that they do college basketball???

 

They are the same officials that have been working the high school games all season. Only a very small percentage of the officials working high school games also work college games.

 

In reading your posts on two different forums you seem to know more and more about less and less.

 

I would venture to say that most officials that get to work a region are college officials. Regardless of that they are still pretty good officials

[bricklayer]

Another point is that when a player is in and out of the paint, the count starts over. One foot out , other in the air, it starts over...Shot goes up, count starts over. I heard it all the time when a shot came off the rim and the same team got it back "hey ref call three seconds"! Just proves that fans are SOOOOO biased and do not know the rules (or the intent of the rule)!

 

:argue:

 

I know the rules pertaining to three seconds. I will admit that I was probably a junior in high school before I knew all of the different scenarios in which the count restarts. Now I just chuckle when I hear someone coaching and reffing from the bleachers and they make comments like this. Really lets you see how much they know about what's going on!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: