I actually heard whole sermons based on it. The only problem is that Xmas isn't taking Christ out, he's in there. In fact the "X" is closer to his title/name than the english by virtue of the language in which the New Testament was written. :thumb:

 

Well, I learned something new today, thank you.

 

I am though a believer that perception equals reality. And by many "XMas" is perceived the way that I explained it lol.

Well, I learned something new today, thank you.

 

I am though a believer that perception equals reality. And by many "XMas" is perceived the way that I explained it lol.

 

I understand that part about perception. It's like the notion about a "Colonial Christimas" and such. The truth is that most of this country did not hold a sacred meaning to Christmas until deep into the 19th century. Most will still say something about changing 200 years of history with our culture and Christmas but the truth shows otherwise. It's easier to hold the illusion than dispell the myth. :thumb:

Just to have discussion about Christmas:

 

http://christian-apologetics-society.blogspot.com/2008/12/baptists-christmas.html

 

Most Baptists in particular did not observe Christmas with any celebration or worship until the late 19th and into the 20th century. Some Baptist schools even had class on Christmas day.

 

In The American Christmas By James Harwood Barnett, we found written:

 

 

"In general, Puritans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Quakers strongly opposed the religious observance of Christmas,..."

 

I find it interesting in the Christmas debate that people sometimes cite the Founding Fathers but most of Colonial America did not acknowledge the holiday as sacred. I'm convinced the current notions of Christmas in our culture come from the Victorian revivals of Christmas in the mid 19th century.

 

 

I guess I should have stuck with my own time and experiences. I just assumed it was that way before my days in public school. Public schools or on government property, is it safe for me to assume that the Ten Commandments were proudly displayed and prayer was common place long before I enrolled in kindergarten? I attended elem school from South Carolina, Kentucky, Japan, Hawaii and back to Kentucky and I don't care what James Harwood Barnett or anyone else says, Christmas break was about Christmas and it was celebrated as Christmas (not just about Santa Claus). If it's no longer Christmas break, a lot has changed in the last 40 years or so.

I guess I should have stuck with my own time and experiences. I just assumed it was that way before my days in public school. Public schools or on government property, is it safe for me to assume that the Ten Commandments were proudly displayed and prayer was common place long before I enrolled in kindergarten? I attended elem school from South Carolina, Kentucky, Japan, Hawaii and back to Kentucky and I don't care what James Harwood Barnett or anyone else says, Christmas break was about Christmas and it was celebrated as Christmas (not just about Santa Claus). If it's no longer Christmas break, a lot has changed in the last 40 years or so.

 

Bingo-winner!

I guess I should have stuck with my own time and experiences. I just assumed it was that way before my days in public school. Public schools or on government property, is it safe for me to assume that the Ten Commandments were proudly displayed and prayer was common place long before I enrolled in kindergarten? I attended elem school from South Carolina, Kentucky, Japan, Hawaii and back to Kentucky and I don't care what James Harwood Barnett or anyone else says, Christmas break was about Christmas and it was celebrated as Christmas (not just about Santa Claus). If it's no longer Christmas break, a lot has changed in the last 40 years or so.

 

And History is right, Bingo! :thumb:

 

We all assume that the way it was in our childhood is the way it was before for ALL America.

 

Don't let the truth beyond your sphere get in the way Skinpig. :lol:

From what I understand of it, one of the reason we celebrate Christmas anyway is because of the Winter Festival that used to be associated with the Winter Solstice.

But we still are denying him his religious right.... Reference to your open can of worms analogy..

 

See my post where I said that religious rights to not automatically override the laws of our country.

 

The only argument one would have is if we allowed Christians to stone their wives but not Muslims.

And History is right, Bingo! :thumb:

 

We all assume that the way it was in our childhood is the way it was before for ALL America.

 

Don't let the truth beyond your sphere get in the way Skinpig. :lol:

 

I still believe it was that way long before I enrolled in kindergarten. My mistake was saying "from the beginning". I can't say when exactly. The only point I was trying to make is that Christmas has been observed and celebrated in our schools for a loooooooooooong time. Religious things like the Ten Commandments have also been proudly displayed in schools and government buildings for a loooooooooong time. There has been bigger changes in regards to this subject in the last thirty years than in the thirty years before I enrolled in school IMO.

You do realize that "schools" have not always been out for Christmas, right? (see above links and research the historical Protestant record concerning Christmas)

 

You do also realize that Xmas is just theological short hand for Christmas? That X is the greek symbol for the letter that begins the name of Christ?

 

Note you said Protestant correct, which were not public schools per se!

 

For a historical overview of Catholic Schools click here and read why there are so many Catholic School today.

 

Honestly that is why I inquired in another post about Muslin having Private Muslin schools.

See my post where I said that religious rights to not automatically override the laws of our country.

 

The only argument one would have is if we allowed Christians to stone their wives but not Muslims.

 

Maybe that's because the Bible and Christian values were used when establishing the laws of our land...And our founders had no intention of giving freedom to religions that didn't match those values. WOW! Talk about a can of worms, this could open a barrel. :thumb:

This country is over 200 years old. Most (not all) public, private and other schools have observed Christmas as a holiday since the beginning. I can't recall any other religious holidays being observed in my public school days (1968 - 1979) (1980 - 1983). I can remember prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance daily up to around the mid 70's. From 1776 to around 1975 most people seemed to be ok with Christmas, pledges and the such. I guess since we are the "melting pot" the viscosity of the brew has gotten so thick we must either observe all religious holidays or observe none. I don't know how to feel about that. Back in the day this country seemed like the coolest place on earth. Is it just as cool now, or am I looking at it wrong?

 

 

Actually Congress was in session on Christmas day for nearly the first 100 years of this nation (12-25-1789 for instance). 1870 is when it became a national holiday under President Grant. In fact Christmas as we know it really didn't exist in the same fashion as it does in a religious sense today for anywhere near as long as most people like to think it did.

 

Christmas itself was an arbitrary choice by early Church leaders to co-opt the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia, Juvenalia and the birthday of Mithras (God of the Unconquerable sun). They decided if they were going to celebrate the birthday of any type of deity they might as well just make it Jesus' birthday and tell the newly converted Christians that this was the reason for the celebration. As it is I have heard a number of biblical scholars state that the actual birth of Christ would have been around March or so if you go by most of the scriptural details.

 

Shoot many Protestants outside of those from the Anglican tradition didn't celebrate Christmas because of its pagan roots until the mid to late 1800's. Oliver Cromwell even banned Christmas celebrations in England while he was in power because of its pagan roots.

 

The biggest problem that I have with this is the fact that we talk about taking the "Christ" out of Christmas when he was essentially an addition to it from the beginning. Besides considering only Catholics and Anglicans, by and large, were even celebrating Christmas for a long time I find all this outrage amusing. On top of all that, most of the traditional celebrations prior to the Victorian era were downright Bacchanalian in their form.

Actually Congress was in session on Christmas day for nearly the first 100 years of this nation. 1870 is when it became a national holiday under President Grant. In fact Christmas as we know it really didn't exist in the same fashion as it does in a religious sense today for anywhere near as long as most people like to think it did.

 

Christmas itself was an arbitrary choice by early Church leaders to co-opt the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia, Juvenalia and the birthday of Mithras (God of the Unconquerable sun). They decided if they were going to celebrate the birthday of any type of deity they might as well just make it Jesus' birthday and tell the newly converted Christians that this was the reason for the celebration. As it is I have heard a number of biblical scholars state that the actual birth of Christ would have been around March or so if you go by most of the scriptural details.

 

Shoot many Protestants outside of those from the Anglican tradition didn't celebrate Christmas because of its pagan roots until the mid to late 1800's. Oliver Cromwell even banned Christmas celebrations in England while he was in power because of its pagan roots.

 

The biggest problem that I have with this is the fact that we talk about taking the "Christ" out of Christmas when he was essentially an addition to it from the beginning. Besides considering only Catholics and Anglicans, by and large, were even celebrating Christmas for a long time I find all this outrage amusing. On top of all that, most of the traditional celebrations prior to the Victorian era were downright Bacchanalian in their form.

 

Your knowledge is quite impressive.

Your knowledge is quite impressive.

 

 

I don't throw out the historian card very often anymore, but sometimes I can't help it. :thumb:

Seriously? If Christmas is on a Friday schools will go to school upto Tuesday or Wednesday. If it was truly for a "winter break" wouldn't they go the entire week?

 

I'd say Christmas is the only one.

I'd say Christmas is the only one.

 

Agreed. What's the Islamic equivalent?