If striking down the law is government meddling in religion, than it IS a religious prayer and should have been strucken down.

 

This was a moment of silence with no direction on prayer. So, why is silence unconstitutional?

 

:idunno: I don't know. I have no personal objection with the law outside of its superfluity. I found the judge's reasoning and the law's text to be rather unconnected, which is why I linked it in my first post. On the other hand, this ruling, as I understand it, doesn't restrict silence or moments of silence in schools, only this particularly law mandating them daily.

:idunno: I don't know. I have no personal objection with the law outside of its superfluity. I found the judge's reasoning and the law's text to be rather unconnected, which is why I linked it in my first post. On the other hand, this ruling, as I understand it, doesn't restrict silence or moments of silence in schools, only this particularly law mandating them daily.

 

It seems the judge was reaching to make sure no semblance of a prayer and somehow he sees a moment of silence as a semblance is allowed.

 

It seems he is going out of his way to attack religion by saying a required moment of silence is somehow prayer.

To focus on the day's activites.

I gave you a similar example of a moment of silence for a basketball game.

 

I do this every day with an agenda powerpoint displayed by my LCD projector at the beginning of every class. Do I need a constitutional amendment for that?

:idunno: I don't know. I have no personal objection with the law outside of its superfluity. I found the judge's reasoning and the law's text to be rather unconnected, which is why I linked it in my first post. On the other hand, this ruling, as I understand it, doesn't restrict silence or moments of silence in schools, only this particularly law mandating them daily.

 

I think that this is the most important part, that is being overlooked.

I do this every day with an agenda powerpoint displayed by my LCD projector at the beginning of every class. Do I need a constitutional amendment for that?

 

Well, it seems if you are from our President's home state and an atheist/ACLU comes calling, you might be in trouble.

I think that this is the most important part, that is being overlooked.

 

Why? What is wrong with the legislature wanted a moment of silence?

We could mandate pledge of allegiance to country and that would be acceptable?

We mandated mathematical concepts that have no bearing on 90% of these kids daily lives.

They mandate all sorts of things that are ridiculous and serve no purpose.

What is the problem with a mandated moment of silence?

 

Would I be the legislator to propose it? No.

But now that it is passed, I don't see a problem with it.

I do see a problem with mandated school led prayer because it will be a watered down prayer and not what Christianity truly is.

Why? What is wrong with the legislature wanted a moment of silence?

We could mandate pledge of allegiance to country and that would be acceptable?

We mandated mathematical concepts that have no bearing on 90% of these kids daily lives.

They mandate all sorts of things that are ridiculous and serve no purpose.

What is the problem with a mandated moment of silence?

 

Would I be the legislator to propose it? No.

But now that it is passed, I don't see a problem with it.

I do see a problem with mandated school led prayer because it will be a watered down prayer and not what Christianity truly is.

 

I don't really want to debate what you consider to be the useless math. I have a differing opinion on that. We could argue that about history, literature, art, music, science, etc.

 

As far as I know there is no "separation of mathematics and state" provided in the constitution.

Well, it seems if you are from our President's home state and an atheist/ACLU comes calling, you might be in trouble.

 

http://www.trimble.k12.ky.us/tchsweb/teachers/apacheco/agenda/january/Jannew13_files/frame.htm

 

Here is a sample, btw. The atheists I have taught haven't had a problem with it.

http://www.trimble.k12.ky.us/tchsweb/teachers/apacheco/agenda/january/Jannew13_files/frame.htm

 

Here is a sample, btw. The atheists I have taught haven't had a problem with it.

 

Obviously, you have taught the wrong ones.

I don't really want to debate what you consider to be the useless math. I have a differing opinion on that. We could argue that about history, literature, art, music, science, etc.

 

As far as I know there is no "separation of mathematics and state" provided in the constitution.

 

I wish there was for some. Matrices for one.:thumb:

 

I have made it through 43 years of my life and used about 50% of the "essential" math that I was taught. And I use math alot.

I wish there was for some. Matrices for one.:thumb:

 

I have made it through 43 years of my life and used about 50% of the "essential" math that I was taught. And I use math alot.

 

I hate matrices, too. But I can tell you that they improve the visual-spatial modality of learning.

 

What I hate worse is logarithms. Now if any president will strike those down, I will certainly vote for their re-election. :lol:

I hate matrices, too. But I can tell you that they improve the visual-spatial modality of learning.

 

What I hate worse is logarithms. Now if any president will strike those down, I will certainly vote for their re-election. :lol:

 

I use the bolded as exhibit A for why they are not needed. If you can't talk in plain English when talking about them..........:sssh:

 

Besides your math class and in your daily life, have you ever found the need to find the sin, cosign, tangent of a number?

I use the bolded as exhibit A for why they are not needed. If you can't talk in plain English when talking about them..........:sssh:

 

Besides your math class and in your daily life, have you ever found the need to find the sin, cosign, tangent of a number?

 

You don't find the sine, cosine, or tangent of a number, you find them of an angle. (where did the winking smilie go???? oh well, I'll use this one :bunny:)

 

Actually, I use them in my Earth/Space Science class to prove that the earth is tilted. It's a year long project. It's a lot better to use experimental date to back up an idea than it is to simple ask them to accept it without proof. Actually, I have used trigonometry to prove a couple of concepts mathematically, or at least explain to them how others proved them.

You don't find the sine, cosine, or tangent of a number, you find them of an angle. (where did the winking smilie go???? oh well, I'll use this one :bunny:)

 

Actually, I use them in my Earth/Space Science class to prove that the earth is tilted. It's a year long project. It's a lot better to use experimental date to back up an idea than it is to simple ask them to accept it without proof. Actually, I have used trigonometry to prove a couple of concepts mathematically, or at least explain to them how others proved them.

 

1st, I said outside of your class.

2nd, I have never had to prove that the Earth was tilted in my life.

 

I went to our concession stand at a ballgame on Saturday. Girl struggled with totaling my order and giving me change but she could tell me the area of a circle. Wonder which she will use more in life?

I fail to see where the striking down of a state law mandating a moment of silence consitutes the government meddling in religion. I also disagree with your assessment of the intentions of the First Amendment. In the words of James Madison "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Okay... we disagree. :lol:

 

You definitely know how to use the internet, but I question your interpretation of the evidence you find. This is also a problem I have with the revisionist history being taught in our public schools. From the Declaration of Independence, up through the 1950s American school children were taught the entire truth about our founding fathers including the overwhelming prevalence of the Christian faith practiced or at least understood and endorsed by all of them. You are clearly a bright student, but you have been fed faulty information. I would imagine that an inquisitive investigator such as yourself would be indignant enough to excavate the whole truth on these matters.

 

As to your post, the quote you reference comes late in Madison's life, long after he was on record as opposing only the establishment of a federal religious denomination, (as had occurred in England) not public religious activities. Known as the Father of the Constitution, his proposed wording for the First Amendment declared:

 

The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of (their personal) religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established.

 

The Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the United States 451, 1st Cong., 1st Sess. (Washington, D. C.: Gales & Seaton 1834) (June 8, 1789).

 

Madison emphasized this viewpoint repeatedly throughout the debates.

 

As President, James Madison Proclaimed the third Thursday in August, 1812 a national day of “Humiliation and Prayer Fast.”

 

The following text was printed in the Independent Chronicle on July 20, 1812.

 

Proclamation.

 

WHEREAS the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses, have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the People of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of pubic Humiliation, and Prayer; and whereas such a recommendation will enable the several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which he has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign power to involve these United States;

 

I do therefore recommend the third Thursday in August next, as a convenient day to be set apart for the devout purposes of rendering to the Sovereign of the Universe and the Benefactor of mankind, the public homage due to his holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasures; of seeking His merciful forgiveness, His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and especially of offering fervent supplications, that in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American People under his peculiar care and protection; that he would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require others to do to them; and finally, that , turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of Peace.

 

Given at Washington the 9th day of July, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twelve.

 

James Madison.

 

I can provide far more examples of Madison’s beliefs along these lines that are contemporaneous with the actual time of the founding and for many years thereafter. The bottom line is this does not sound like a Founding Father who would frown upon the open exercise of prayer in our public schools, or the display of the Ten Commandments in our court houses, or a manger scene placed by citizens in the public square at Christmas.

 

You can castigate me all you want along these lines, but the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding the actual words and beliefs of America’s founding fathers is that they were far more condemning of government meddling in religion… not the other way around.