Well, if he was just an accumulator, he was the best accumulator ever. True, I don't think he was ever a guy that you looked at and said "wow". He didn't have great power or speed, but he could steal a base when needed, and up until his late 30's, could hit the ball out of the ballpark if he tried. He would never be looked at as a great defender, but was more than serviceable at 5 different positions (LF, RF, 2nd, 3rd, 1st). Really, there has never been a ballplayer anywhere close to him in terms of versatility and longevity. And no other modern player is even within 500 hits of him, (at least 3 full seasons).

I can't even get close to his hit total in The Show.

I must not be very clear here lol, I'm not saying he was a bad player, he was obviously one of the greatest hitters ever. But in the total player talent sense, he was average. Now did his hitting outweigh a lot of his deficiencies, yeah. I love Pete Rose btw.

Where would you all rate Rose all time?

His 1 tool that he excelled at, hitting, won him gold gloves. Fascinating.

Even if he was "only" top 100-200 he's still GREAT!!!!

Where would you all rate Rose all time?

 

Top 200 which would put him in the top two percent of all players who have played MLB.

Even if he was "only" top 100-200 he's still GREAT!!!!

 

Where did I say he wasn't great?

I understand what Loogy is trying to say. As far as having God given talent Pete Rose was way down the list among baseball players. Heck even Pete will tell you that. Nobody worked harder than Pete though to become a great baseball player. Can you imagine how good some of today's top athletes would be if they had Pete's work ethic.

I actually agree with Loogy but have thoroughly enjoyed giving him a tough way to go.:deadhorse:

We seem to be confusing "physical ability" with a specific skill set - hitting a baseball and putting it in play.

 

There are parallels in many sports. Athletes like John Stockton, Steve Nash come to mind. Fran Tarkenton. Lots of baseball examples. Heck, Babe Ruth doesn't exactly wow you from a "natural athlete" perspective. The same could be said for many a professional golfer. Lee Trevino, Billy Casper - Gary Player is another that through a combination of determination and an incredible physical fitness regimen did what literally only a handful of golfers did.

 

Actually I think Babe Ruth was a great athlete. Early in his youth he was one of the best pitchers in baseball. Converted to outfield he excelled at hitting and fielding. He then ate and drank his way to just a hitter.

This is actually kind of funny to me because I despise Pete Rose. However I can separate my dislike from reality.

 

If I was building an all time team. He would be starting for me.

 

Whoever says he was average is nuts.

 

1. The best hitter ever.

 

2. You do realize he played 2200 innings at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd and only committed 189 errors during those games. That's 1 error every 11.64 games at infield positions.

 

Pete Rose - m.bbref.com

 

3. Joe Morgan played 2527 games at 2nd base and committed 244 errors. That's one error every 10.36 games.

 

Joe Morgan - m.bbref.com

 

4. Stats typically don't lie.

If you get a cup of coffee in the bigs, you still are not average compared to all that play the game, you are much better than average. Many many more that start never make it compared to those that do. Now if you want to compare those that made it and played a few years and say someone was an average major leaguer, ok I get that. Pete still wasn't an average major leaguer, he was one of the best to play the game, nothing at all average about him on the field.

 

That's like saying the number 150 ranked golfer in the world is below average or average. That person is outstanding and great at his craft. You don't play at an elite/professional level in any sport and be average

Pete accumulated hits. And debt.

I can't come close to buying the concept of Rose being an "average" talent. He started a ton of games at multiple positions in the majors, that's a tool not many guys have. And, as someone pointed out, he won gold gloves and played those positions well. Requires some athletic ability.

 

Not sure about the "look test" argument. Rose was a strong guy in his era, dude had some big forearms. Most baseball players, particularly of that era, didn't look like world class athletes. Rose sure would have passed the airport test on any MLB team of that era.

 

Baseball is a very skill specific sport, and Rose had great skills that fit that sport.

 

If talent (or athleticism) is something that can't be taught, Rose had it. Great hand/eye coordination as proven by not only his ability to put the bat on the ball, but his ability with the glove.