That's what I thought. So teams do get eliminated by in-season district play in football, correct? And that's my point. They elimate, but allow 4 to move forward. In other sports, they elimiate and only two move forward. HOW the district eliminations are determined differently from sport to sport, but the process of using a DISTRICT PROCESS is the same. The intent is to have an outcome where some teams stay home and some move on. In other sports, 2 teams move on...AND THEY ONLY HAVE ONE STATE CHAMP!

 

For those of you that are new to this area of football thing, it used to be 4 teams advance and only 4 classes. But the districts were larger too (7-9 teams). Which means a very lower percentage of teams EARNED their way to the playoffs (so 50% made the playoffs, now what 98% make the playoffs?). The playoffs were outstanding! Now Yes, you'd have an occasional blowout, but most games were competitive and worth the trip to play them. All seeds had a chance to win. And yes, occasionally a pretty good team was left out, but you knew that ahead of time and your district games (during the regular season) were very important! It was very exciting for the fans and players. As a player, you were very proud of what you acheived by just making the playoffs! That's the way it should be. You had to be concerned that you may not make it. But again, you knew that before you ever take the field! Earn your way in!!!

 

You are stretching so far trying to get your way in this argument that it is borderline silly. There are 5 team districts where all the teams make the playoffs in football. How does that exception figure in to your regular season elimination argument?

 

The playoffs in the four class system were no better or worse than they are now. If you think it was, go check the brackets. You still had blow out games. There were bad teams that made the playoffs. That's just the way it is in football. So we had one less round of games. Whoop ti do. Is that what this is all about? You want one less round of playoff games? I really don't get what the problem is with letting as many teams as possible play in the post season.

Yes, there are a couple districts with 5 teams where the fifth place team does not make the district. If those exceptions of 3 or 4 teams make you right in your mind, congratulations. The fact still remains that the current model for football is the closest model to what happens in other sports.

 

As we go through this argument again, I think of kids I have seen compete in post season in a number of sports. They knew they had zero chance of winning ... zero. But they still showed up and participated. Why? Why did they "waste our time" filling a lane on a track or in a pool? Why did that team take a time slot in a district tournament and make umpires, referees, volunteers and administrators have to deal with the work?

 

Ladies and gentleman, stop thinking about the winning or the ugly losing or whether a game is worth watching. These kids want to compete. Yes, even when they know there is no chance of winning. They practice hard. They build friendships with coaches and teammates. They learn team work and dealing with people, good and bad, as they work toward a goal and being the best they can be. The team Highlands plays in round one in football ... those kids on the other team will show up and try their best and be glad they did despite the result. These kids are learning who they are and challenging themselves. So what if they suffer a huge loss in the playoffs. They got an experience they can learn from and that is what is most important. The first time a team says they would rather forfeit than play their playoff game, I will reconsider my position. Until then, let as many kids compete as long as is reasonable and good luck to all of them.

 

I get that they want to compete. I coach and understand that. They all practice hard. However, sports is a great life lesson. Things are earned in life, not handed out because you want to compete. Should I hire someone because they "want" the job or should I hire the person that earned the job? They all get a chance to compete in thier season. They all get a chance to earn their way in. That's what is so great about sports. It teaches you to make yourself better to overcome your opponent. Life is a big sport. 90% of the teams advancing to what should be an "earned priviledge" is not sending the right message. Play the entire season, have a process of elimination (just because some have 5 and some have 4 doesn't mean its not the first step in eliminating teams from competition), but advance just about everyone to the state tournament, except just a few? Makes no sense. Then lets talk about the 5th team in the district that got eliminated. Don't they deserve to "compete"? Don't they deserve "one more game". Don't they deserve to "make a upset run in the playoffs"? Heck, I bet we could make some very valid arguments that some of the 5th seeded teams may be better than some of the 4's that made it in! How is that fair!!!!????? My point that we are making is Football DOES have a district elimination process. Just because only a few teams get eliminated in the process doesn't mean we blow it off for this argument! It's actually the exact cause of the argument. They don't eliminate enough.

 

My argument has nothing to do with me wanting to watch good games. It has nothing to do with being an elitist. It has nothing to do with the fact HHS' freshman could beat Boyd Co. It has to do with what is exactly wrong with society these days. Everyone expects a handout. Everyone expects things to be given to them rather than earned. A STATE PLAYOFF BERTH SHOULD BE EARNED, PERIOD! Allowing just about every team in the STATE TOURNAMENT is not teaching anyone anything. Why not just can the regular season and make the entire season a 2 and out tournament that has every team in it. That's letting them all in and "playing it out on the field". Every sport known to man has a way to eliminate teams before they get to compete in championship play. Heck even the NBA, who lets too many teams in, doesn't let 90% of the teams in!

 

Some say "well what if 3 teams tie". Well we still have to have tiebreakers to determine the seeds, correct? I'll ask, what if 4 teams tie? Then what do you do? You can ask "what ifs" all day!

You are stretching so far trying to get your way in this argument that it is borderline silly. There are 5 team districts where all the teams make the playoffs in football. How does that exception figure in to your regular season elimination argument?

 

The playoffs in the four class system were no better or worse than they are now. If you think it was, go check the brackets. You still had blow out games. There were bad teams that made the playoffs. That's just the way it is in football. So we had one less round of games. Whoop ti do. Is that what this is all about? You want one less round of playoff games? I really don't get what the problem is with letting as many teams as possible play in the post season.

 

5 team districts in 2a-5a do not get all 5 teams in. The reason for 6A and 1A have already been discussed.

RCC9 ... you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. It is all semantics in your argument. Post season district play in football is very much the same as it is in every other sport. I guarantee you that if there were any way to make it work, the KHSAA would get every football team into the playoffs. They got as close as they could and that leaves a couple teams out. That doesn't make regular season district play an elimination. It is just that there are a couple exceptions.

 

Bottom line ... regular season district play in football is handled just like it is in every other sport. It is used to seed for the post season and everyone gets into the post season (with those few exceptions).

 

Please answer this question - besides those 2-3 teams that don't get to play in the post season in football, what is the difference between the basketball district tournament and the football "tournament"?

You are stretching so far trying to get your way in this argument that it is borderline silly. There are 5 team districts where all the teams make the playoffs in football. How does that exception figure in to your regular season elimination argument?

 

The playoffs in the four class system were no better or worse than they are now. If you think it was, go check the brackets. You still had blow out games. There were bad teams that made the playoffs. That's just the way it is in football. So we had one less round of games. Whoop ti do. Is that what this is all about? You want one less round of playoff games? I really don't get what the problem is with letting as many teams as possible play in the post season.

 

I go the other way - ADD another round and have clearly identified REGIONAL championships and make this round have more meaning that the current set up. No one really celebrates Regional championships as they used to. Then have a clearly separate State tournament of the Regional champions. And for the separate State championship go to a blind draw to mix things up. Maybe more travel in that tournament but when you have Bell County going to the Louisville area for first or second round games now its hard to argue the travel angle.

 

The predictability of the current format is boring, unexciting and routine. Its the same year after year - except for the magical rotating 6A class. The whole system needs a spark of randomness to change the paths and match-ups. It would be good for the lower echelon teams and some of the non-6A powerhouses like Highlands and Bowling Green would probably like the change of scenery year to year.

^ Here's the thing about the last paragraph Bluegrasscard, it was boring, unexciting and routine when it was 4 classes. The top tier teams are just who they are and it doesn't matter if it is 4 or 6 classes.

I hear and understand the point being made about teaching life lessons and that the good things in life have to be earned. That along with learning how to lose, and deal with failure are important lessons that sports can help teach young men and women as they move into adulthood. However, lets be real here......is it really possible that letting nearly every team in the playoff's really teach a bad lesson or set some kid up for failure in his/her adult life?? I'm a sports guy, and the life lessons you can learn from sports are real....but let's face it, the future of our youth depends a lot more on many other things (especially academics, where many of the same lessons are learned with more real impact than any sporting event). The first round playoff games are really just treated like any other game from what I've seen. I don't think anybody treats "making" these first round games as a huge success or life changing.

 

Do I think the current system is watered down with 6 classes?? Sure it is. 6 classes probably is too many. Maybe a team or two that win a state title aren't really "great" teams, just simply pretty good in a weak class. Ultimately, so what? Who's really being hurt because a football team gets an extra game or two, or call themselves a state champ? Football is the one sport that pretty much ends for most people with the last high school game, and I don't know very many people that played, that wouldn't like just one more chance to play. I just don't see any detriment in letting teams play one more game, and get one more chance for a lifelong memory. This isn't a case of everybody gets a juicebox and a cookie after the game, everybody get's a trophy mentality. And giving a bad team one more game isn't going to undo life lessons learned, or derail some kids path to success.

^ Here's the thing about the last paragraph Bluegrasscard, it was boring, unexciting and routine when it was 4 classes. The top tier teams are just who they are and it doesn't matter if it is 4 or 6 classes.

 

True.

 

I really get very irked by the artificial attempts to manipulate the teams that get to the current regional finals. I am talking about the artificially created 6A 'super-district' and the rotation of the same super district. Throw in their the limiting of the 1A and 6A classes as well.

 

So will the same set of teams rise to the top and be in the 'State Tournament'. Yes. And I have no issue with that. But going to a separate tournament where blind draw forms the pairings would provide some excitement and interest since you would not know your opponent until the draw and it maybe someone you rarely or never play otherwise. At least at that level you would have some new pairings and paths and add some variability into the equation. I think that would increase interest.

If we want to shake it up, here is an idea - go to 5 classes plus a "super class" invitational. Set a system in place for who qualifies for the playoffs in classes 1A-5A. For the invitational, any team in any class can declare at say week 8 for the invitational. If there aren't 32 teams in the invitational, then you use an agreed upon ranking system and the top ranked teams in 4A and 5A to fill the bracket. If more than 32 teams want into the invitational, the agreed upon ranking system will decide who is in and who plays for a title in their class. For the slots in the 1A-5A tournament that are opened up, allow teams that were eliminated to fill slots. If a slot doesn't get filled in round one, that is a bye for the other team. That will give us a true state champion regardless of class size, eliminate some teams that are so bad they didn't qualify and still give as many teams as possible a chance at a title in their class.

Do it like Champions League Soccer.

 

5 Classes plus Super Class of 16 teams

Initial Class would be 16 largest schools, but a smaller school could opt in at the beginning thus bumping the worst team in the top 16 out of the super class and moving them to 5A.

 

Any team that wins 2 state titles in 3 years is bumped up 1 class automatically.

 

If a team is currently 5A and moves up they bump the worst team out of the Super Class based on which team has the worst two year cumulative record.

 

 

Remaining schools would be divided into 5 classes absorbing the rest of 6A that doesn't make the Super Class.

4 teams from each district would still make the playoffs.

Okay, wanted to see for myself just how each class shapes up with who makes the postseason, and who doesn't. If my numbers are correct, here's what it is:

 

Class 1A: 32 teams (0 teams don't advance)

Class 2A: 39 teams (7 teams don't advance)

Class 3A: 40 teams (8 teams don't advance)

Class 4A: 37 teams (5 teams don't advance)

Class 5A: 40 teams (8 teams don't advance)

Class 6A: 32 teams (0 teams don't advance)

 

Total: 220 teams (28 don't advance)

 

Which results in 87% of teams advancing to the playoffs.

 

District size across all classes is broken down as such:

(1) 3-team district

(28) 4-team districts

(14) 5-team districts (1 of which is a 6A, which sends it's #5 seed to the 3-team district as the #4 seed)

(6) 6-team districts

(1) 7-team district

 

Which means there are 30 teams that advance, no matter what record they have, just because of how many teams there are in their district.

 

All of which brings me to this conclusion. Football is not a sport that you can realistically expect to have everyone make the postseason. Playing one game a week prohibits that. And right now, you have a system that allows for the possibility of more winless teams to get in to the tournament, than you're actually eliminating from the tournament due to the regular season play. I don't like that. To me, the regular season should mean something, otherwise, why play it?

 

So again, I go back to what RockPride mentioned earlier. Keep the classes the same. Keep the districts the same. But, only take the top 3 in each district. This forces teams to win at least 1 district game during the year to make the postseason, even in 1A and 6A. Give the #1 seed a bye week that first week of the tournament then...a reward for a successful regular season. Is there still a likelihood for blowouts? Absolutely. There's simply too many games being played by the top-tier programs. It's bound to happen. But, I think it would help the image of the state tournament overall, by being more "selective" in who makes it.

I like the soccer idea.

#1 Go to 5 classes- no more 3 or 4 team districts so teams will have to actually earn their way into playoffs a little bit.

#2 Relegate and Promote- At the end of each 2 year cycle the top 4 programs in each class move up a class and the bottom 4 move down a class. This will be decided strictly by adding up all the district and playoff wins a school has. No games scheduled by the school will count. The enrollment numbers will be used to break a tie.

A program like Highlands would settle in probably in the top class, while a current school like 5A Logan county may settle all the way down to 1A where they can be competitive.

 

Huge up-side: More competitive districts and classes. Far fewer playoff blowouts. Disadvantaged programs get a chance to build against similar people.

 

Downside: Someone still has to step up at the top to keep Trinity and X from winning every year. Schools like Mayfield would climb and climb to much tougher classes and not win the championship anymore, thus costing a small school those special memories and pride that they currently enjoy, and somewhat punishing them for their success.

RCC9 ... you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. It is all semantics in your argument. Post season district play in football is very much the same as it is in every other sport. I guarantee you that if there were any way to make it work, the KHSAA would get every football team into the playoffs. They got as close as they could and that leaves a couple teams out. That doesn't make regular season district play an elimination. It is just that there are a couple exceptions.

 

Bottom line ... regular season district play in football is handled just like it is in every other sport. It is used to seed for the post season and everyone gets into the post season (with those few exceptions).

 

Please answer this question - besides those 2-3 teams that don't get to play in the post season in football, what is the difference between the basketball district tournament and the football "tournament"?

 

This is exactly my point. No difference in the intent of the process...to weed out teams. You're right, it's exactly the same! The difference is, in bball 2 teams advance (from a 4-5 team district) after the district process is complete. In football, 4 teams from 4-5 teams district advance after the district process is complete. You can minimize the fact that only a few teams are eliminated, but that's exactly my point. Many more should be eliminated! If the districts were 7-8 teams like they used to be, I have no problem with 4 teams. But instead, they decreased the district sizes by 50% and still take the same amount of teams!!! Regardless of what you say, there is a process and the process is to let 4 teams advance, which waters down the State tournament. Add on the fact there are classes in football and it's even more watered down.

 

So should we let 4 teams advance out of the districts in every other sport? Why not? I'll use the exact same arguments you are using for football. They deserve to play another game! Let it play out on the court! What's it hurt? If 4 football teams can advance from the district, then 4 bball teams should be able to advance out of the district too! Football has a district process that is played out during the season that is there to weed out teams. They just let too many through. The other sports do not.

 

By the way, many more teams are eliminated with the district football process than you think.

It is something like 28 teams don't go to the playoffs, not 2 or 3

I hear and understand the point being made about teaching life lessons and that the good things in life have to be earned. That along with learning how to lose, and deal with failure are important lessons that sports can help teach young men and women as they move into adulthood. However, lets be real here......is it really possible that letting nearly every team in the playoff's really teach a bad lesson or set some kid up for failure in his/her adult life?? I'm a sports guy, and the life lessons you can learn from sports are real....but let's face it, the future of our youth depends a lot more on many other things (especially academics, where many of the same lessons are learned with more real impact than any sporting event). The first round playoff games are really just treated like any other game from what I've seen. I don't think anybody treats "making" these first round games as a huge success or life changing.

 

Do I think the current system is watered down with 6 classes?? Sure it is. 6 classes probably is too many. Maybe a team or two that win a state title aren't really "great" teams, just simply pretty good in a weak class. Ultimately, so what? Who's really being hurt because a football team gets an extra game or two, or call themselves a state champ? Football is the one sport that pretty much ends for most people with the last high school game, and I don't know very many people that played, that wouldn't like just one more chance to play. I just don't see any detriment in letting teams play one more game, and get one more chance for a lifelong memory. This isn't a case of everybody gets a juicebox and a cookie after the game, everybody get's a trophy mentality. And giving a bad team one more game isn't going to undo life lessons learned, or derail some kids path to success.

 

Okay, I live with what you're saying if that's truly where we want to go. Then let them all in!

 

But IF I said you're right, let's transition that same philosophy to bball, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc. Let them all in! Does that sound crazy or fine to you? Because basically what you are saying is do away with district titles and only use district games to seed the next level. Then lets do that in every sport! My daughter would love to have an opportunity to play another game. She deserves and extra game. She deserves a chance to play in the state, regardless of how good they are or what their record is. Lets advance all district teams and play it out on the court!

 

I'm not saying I want to do that. I'm saying when you apply that thinking to the other sports, people would look at you like you have three heads! Why apply it to football and not the others?

 

For the others that say in the other sports, they all qualify for post season, so does football. And the elimination process starts when district play starts. So lets do away with all district competition in all sports and only use it to seed the state tournament. That sounds crazy huh? But I will use the exact same arguments that everyone is using on here to justify it. Answer your own questions by applying it to another sport and tell me why we can't apply it to all sports. You can't because the idea of letting all those teams advance in the other sports sounds ludacris! That's how I feel about football. Ludacris to let that many teams in a STATE TOURNAMENT!