What would it tell you?

 

Where the cry for change is coming from. I have a hard time believing that top level team coaches want to lose games. Not that a huge blowout helps them, but the extra weeks of practice does. JMO

Here is a link to breakdown of voting by district:

 

Football Survey 2013 by District

Where the cry for change is coming from. I have a hard time believing that top level team coaches want to lose games. Not that a huge blowout helps them, but the extra weeks of practice does. JMO

 

I would suggest that some coaches may have their own interest in mind; therefore, they might not be the best people to make decisions regarding playoff structure.

I found how the Louisville Area schools voted:

 

* Four teams (17 votes): Atherton, Bullitt Central, Bullitt East, Eastern, Kentucky Country Day, Male, Manual, Moore, North Bullitt, Seneca, Shelby County, South Oldham, Spencer County, St. Xavier, Valley, Waggener, Western.

* Three teams (10 votes): Butler, Central, Christian Academy, Collins, Doss, Holy Cross, Iroquois, North Oldham, Oldham County, Shawnee.

* Two teams (seven votes): Ballard, Fairdale, Fern Creek, Jeffersontown, Pleasure Ridge Park, Southern, Trinity.

* Did not vote: DeSales.

 

Link

 

I'm glad to see my feeling is the same of my school.

Here is a link to breakdown of voting by district:

 

Football Survey 2013 by District

 

If you scroll down the page, you can see how every school in the state voted.

I'm glad to see my feeling is the same of my school.

Here are all the schools that voted for a two team format (53 Schools):

 

Allen County-Scottsville (Kerry Harwood, Athletic Director)

Ashland Blazer (Derek Runyon, Principal)

Ballard (Chris Kinney, Athletic Director)

Beechwood (Ben A. Zimmerman Jr., Principal)

Bell County (RIchard Gambrel, Principal)

Bowling Green (Gary Fields, Principal)

Breathitt County (Derek McKnight, Principal)

Breckinridge County (Walt Hildenbrandt, Athletic Director)

Campbellsville (Tim Davis, Athletic Director)

Casey County (Victor Black, Athletic Director)

Christian County (Steve Lovelace, Athletic Director)

Clinton County (Mike Beard, Athletic Director)

Covington Catholic (Mike Guidugli, Athletic Director)

Daviess County (Jeff Hurley, Athletic Director)

Dayton (scott meyers, Athletic Director)

East Ridge (Randy D. McCoy, Athletic Director)

Elizabethtown (Doug Barnes, Athletic Director)

Estill County (Arthur Ballard, Athletic Director)

Fairdale (Ernest Smith, Athletic Director)

Fern Creek (Troy Johnson, Athletic Director)

Fulton City (Donna Garland, Principal)

Fulton County (Steven Spadafino, Athletic Director)

Gallatin County (Jon jones, Athletic Director)

Graves County (Doug Gloyd, Athletic Director)

Harlan County (Fred Mccreary, Athletic Director)

Hart County (Jerry Taylor, Athletic Director)

Holmes (stan steidel, Athletic Director)

Jeffersontown (Gary Weiter, Athletic Director)

Lawrence County (Travis Feltner, Athletic Director)

Marshall County (Jeff Stokes, Athletic Director)

Mason County (Steve Appelman, Principal)

Mayfield (Joe Morris, Athletic Director)

McCreary Central (Robert Jones, Athletic Director)

Newport Central Catholic (Rob Detzel, Athletic Director)

Nicholas County (Robert Hopkins, Athletic Director)

Owen County (T.J. Wesselman, Athletic Director)

Owensboro (Chris Gaddis, Athletic Director)

Paintsville (Charles McClure, Principal)

Paris (Cary Barr, Athletic Director)

Pikeville (Michael Rowe, Principal)

Pleasure Ridge Park (Craig Webb, Athletic Director)

Raceland (Bill Farley, Athletic Director)

Russell (Sam Sparks, Athletic Director)

Russell County (Keith Ellis, Principal)

Somerset (Robert Tucker, Athletic Director)

Southern (David A. Burns, Athletic Director)

Tates Creek (Joe Ruddell, Athletic Director)

Trinity (Louisville) (Rob Mullen, Principal)

Walton-Verona (Kyle Bennett, Athletic Director)

Webster County (Matt Bell, Athletic Director)

West Carter (Brian Brown, Athletic Director)

Western Hills (Craig Fry, Athletic Director)

Whitley County (Mike Campbell, Athletic Director)

If anyone wants someone to blame for the four team format, here are the schools that voted for it (118 Schools):

 

 

Adair County (Travis Gay, Principal)

Anderson County (Rick Sallee, Athletic Director)

Apollo (Jon Boultinghouse, Athletic Director)

Atherton (Dr. Thomas Aberli, Principal)

Ballard Memorial (Amber Parker, Athletic Director)

Bardstown (David Clark, Athletic Director)

Bath County (Arlen R. McNabb, Athletic Director)

Belfry (Rod Varney, Principal)

Bellevue (Dave Eckstein, Principal)

Berea (Luke Wright, Athletic Director)

Bishop Brossart (Mel Webster, Athletic Director)

Boone County (Jon Smith, Athletic Director)

Bourbon County (lana fryman, Superintendent)

Boyd County (Rhonda Salisbury, Principal)

Boyle County (Will Begley, Principal)

Bracken County (Michael T. Hunter, Principal)

Bullitt Central (Keith Davis, Superintendent)

Bullitt East (Bob Blackburn, Athletic Director)

Butler County (Ryan Emmick, Athletic Director)

Caldwell County (David Barnes, Athletic Director)

Calloway County (Heath Walls, Principal)

Campbell County (Steve Hensley, Athletic Director)

Carroll County (Paul Stone, Athletic Director)

Caverna (Nick Stephens, Athletic Director)

Central Hardin (Tim.Isaacs, Principal)

Clay County (Robert Nicholson, Athletic Director)

Conner (tom stellman, Athletic Director)

Cooper (Randy Borchers, Athletic Director)

Crittenden County (Angela P. Starnes, Athletic Director)

Dixie Heights (Matt Wilhoite, Athletic Director)

DuPont Manual (Wooldridge, Principal)

East Jessamine (Daniel Sandlin, Athletic Director)

Eastern (Anthony Howard, Athletic Director)

Edmonson County (Kyle Pierce, Athletic Director)

Eminence (Buddy Berry, Superintendent)

Fleming County (Mark Leet, Principal)

Fort Knox (Jackie Prather, Athletic Director)

Franklin County (Tracy Spickard, Athletic Director)

Franklin-Simpson (Doug Preston, Athletic Director)

Garrard County (Kalem Grasham, Principal)

George Rogers Clark (Ryan Nolan, Athletic Director)

Grant County (Steve Thompson, Athletic Director)

Grayson County (josh basham, Athletic Director)

Green County (Tim Deaton, Athletic Director)

Greenup County (Jerry Allen, Athletic Director)

Hancock County (David Hobbs, Athletic Director)

Harrison County (Brad Allison, Athletic Director)

Henderson County (Vivian Tomblin, Athletic Director)

Henry Clay (Amanda Christensen, Superintendent)

Highlands (dale mueller, Athletic Director)

Hopkinsville (Keith Kelley, Athletic Director)

Jackson County (Wes Bishop, Athletic Director)

Jenkins (Steven Wright, Athletic Director)

John Hardin (Greg Cecil, Athletic Director)

Johnson Central (Tommy McKenzie, Athletic Director)

Kentucky Country Day (Dr. J. Tim Green, Athletic Director)

Knott County Central (Robert C. Pollard, Principal)

Lafayette (Michael Kinney, Athletic Director)

LaRue County (David Dawson, Athletic Director)

Leslie County (Shannon Crisp, Athletic Director)

Letcher County Central (Ozz Jackson, Athletic Director)

Lewis County (Josh Hughes, Athletic Director)

Lexington Catholic (Kevin Bruggeman, Athletic Director)

Lexington Christian (Keith Hall, Principal)

Lincoln County (Tim Godbey, Principal)

Lloyd Memorial (Mike Key, Athletic Director)

Madisonville-North Hopkins (Mike Quinn, Athletic Director)

Magoffin County (Neil West, Athletic Director)

Male (JOHN KELSEY, Athletic Director)

Marion County (Robby Peterson, Athletic Director)

McLean County (Marshall Enoch, Athletic Director)

Meade County (Todd Clanton, Athletic Director)

Mercer County (Dennis Davis, Superintendent)

Metcalfe County (fred harbison, Athletic Director)

Middlesboro (Bob Bennett, Principal)

Monroe County (John Petett, Athletic Director)

Moore (Steen Silvano, Athletic Director)

Muhlenberg County (Brad Divine, Athletic Director)

Murray (Bob Rogers, Superintendent)

Nelson County (Bill Broaddus, Athletic Director)

North Bullitt (Bill Robinette, Athletic Director)

North Hardin (James Slaven, Athletic Director)

North Laurel (Joseph Michael Black, Principal)

Ohio County (Gregory D. Decker, Principal)

Paducah Tilghman (Dwayne E. Wall, Athletic Director)

Paul Laurence Dunbar (Andy Sirginnis, Athletic Director)

Pike County Central (Eugene Lyons, Athletic Director)

Powell County (monroe jones, Athletic Director)

Prestonsburg (Jackie Crisp, Athletic Director)

Pulaski County (Brian Miller, Athletic Director)

Rowan County (Ray Ginter, Athletic Director)

Russellville (Nathan Thompson, Athletic Director)

Ryle (James R. Demler, Athletic Director)

Scott (Ken Mueller, Athletic Director)

Scott County (Joe Covington, Athletic Director)

Seneca (Scott Ricks, Athletic Director)

Shelby County (Sally Zimmerman, Athletic Director)

Sheldon Clark (Robbie L. Fletcher, Principal)

Simon Kenton (Jeff Marksberry, Athletic Director)

South Floyd (Tony Isaac, Athletic Director)

South Oldham (Mitchell Irvin, Athletic Director)

South Warren (Chris Decker, Athletic Director)

Southwestern (Danita Ellis, Principal)

Spencer County (Mike Marksbury, Athletic Director)

St. Xavier (Alan Donhoff, Athletic Director)

Taylor County (Roger D. Cook, Superintendent)

Todd County Central (carlton evans, Athletic Director)

Trigg County (Marty Jaggers, Athletic Director)

Trimble County (Frank Ragland, Athletic Director)

Union County (Jeremy Tackett, Athletic Director)

Valley (William S Raleigh, Athletic Director)

Waggener (James Dumstorf, Athletic Director)

Warren Central (Todd Steward, Athletic Director)

Washington County (Jeff Tingle, Athletic Director)

Wayne County (Brian Dishman, Principal)

West Jessamine (Dean Geary, Athletic Director)

Western (Robert Johnson, Athletic Director)

Woodford County (Bob Gibson, Athletic Director)

VOR, if I may, I think what RCC9 is trying to say is that there are teams "eliminated" from continuing on in the postseason, in the regular season, when there's more than 4 teams in a district. The instance that has been mentioned already, Cooper-Grant County, was pretty much a "play-in" game. You win, you're in. You lose, you stay home. I think both of you are saying the same thing, but looking at it from different points of view (winners vs. losers). For the winners, it's a game that allowed you to qualify for the "official tournament". For the losers, though, it was an elimination game...hence RCC9's contention that it's basically a playoff game during the regular season.

 

THIS! And the only reason football doesn't have an official "post season" district tournament is because you can't with the nature of football. If they could, they would! They found a solution by making the district games the way to eliminate teams...which is exactly like a district tournament in bball. Execpt in bball you can play multiple games in a few days...so they play it at the end of the season.

 

VOR you keep saying that it's not the same because just a very few are eliminated with the current district process. I agree! That's my issue. They should eliminate more in the current process (like bball does) Hence, the watered down state tournament! If they only took two teams, the outcome of the process for district elimination would be exactly the same. So picture football only advancing 2 teams after the district determination was complete. 4-5 teams in and district and only two advance from that district! Just like bball! It makes no difference WHEN the district games are played. Foot ball has to do it that way. The way they arrive at the outcome is different becasue of the nature of football. You want to define post season vs regular season. My point is, in football, determination of who moves on starts with your first district game! And if they didn't take 4 teams, how important would that district game be. It would be exactly like an elimination tournament, wouldn't it? So the fact that they take so many teams after district process makes it appear that it's not the same as bball. But it is! The process is still in place, but the allowance of just about every team to pass through the process leads to blowing it off as "it's not the same", when if it was less teams advancing, it would be exactly the same! Too many teams advance.

Here are the schools that voted for a three team format (39 Schools):

 

Allen Central (Larry Joe Begley, Principal)

Barren County (Steve Riley, Principal)

Betsy Layne (Ricky Thacker, Athletic Director)

Bryan Station (Chad Luhman, Athletic Director)

Butler (Mike Crawley, Athletic Director)

Central (Marlon Miller, Athletic Director)

Christian Academy-Louisville (Darin Long, Athletic Director)

Collins (John Leeper, Principal)

Corbin (Thom Smith, Athletic Director)

Doss (Kevin Salyer, Athletic Director)

East Carter (Troy Criswell, Athletic Director)

Fairview (GARRY MCPEEK, Principal)

Frankfort (Craig Foley, Athletic Director)

Greenwood (Greg Dunn, Principal)

Henry County (Todd Gilley, Athletic Director)

Holy Cross (Covington) (Mike Holtz, Principal)

Holy Cross (Louisville) (jody thornsberry, Athletic Director)

Hopkins County Central (Nancy Oldham, Athletic Director)

Iroquois (Mike Beard, Athletic Director)

Knox Central (Tommy smit, Athletic Director)

Logan County (Hugh McReynolds, Athletic Director)

Ludlow (Jodi Schmidt, Athletic Director)

Lynn Camp (danny green, Athletic Director)

Madison Central (Phillip Todd Wilson, Athletic Director)

Madison Southern (Calvin Creech, Athletic Director)

Montgomery County (Gene Heffington, Athletic Director)

Morgan County (Ralph Hamilton, Athletic Director)

North Oldham (billy Martin, Athletic Director)

Oldham County (Kevin Combs, Athletic Director)

Owensboro Catholic (Gates Settle, Principal)

Pendleton County (Keith Smith, Athletic Director)

Perry County Central (Randy Napier, Athletic Director)

Phelps (Mike Hamilton, Principal)

Pineville (Brenda Gambrel, Athletic Director)

Shawnee (Dwight Bransford, Athletic Director)

Shelby Valley (Greg Napier, Principal)

South Laurel (keith gilbert, Athletic Director)

Warren East (Jonathan Vincent, Athletic Director)

Williamsburg (Gary Peters, Principal)

In general terms, it looks as if most schools that are a perennial one or two seed voted for the Two-Team format, while many that are not routinely a one or two seed voted for the Four-Team format, with most of the people voting for the Three-Team format teams that are not routinely one or two seeds. Highlands and St. Xavier are the glaring teams that voted for the Four-Team format that do not fit this generalization.

 

I think most schools voted the way they did based on the money. The teams that are normally one or two seeds are probably losing money by hosting home playoff games against teams that are three and four seeds who do not bring big crowds. The money has to be split between the two schools and I know of many schools that routinely lose money by hosting first and second round playoff games, due to the opposing team not traveling well.

 

Teams that are normally a three or four seed are traveling to another school to play where the home crowd is routinely larger and the visiting team receives half the gate money for showing up, even though their fan base may have only minimally contributed to that gate money.

 

So, my take on it (Not a blanket statement) is most schools that host first round games want a Two-Team format, while most teams that travel in the first round want a Four-Team format. The ones and twos don't want to lose money, the threes and fours want more money then they contribute.

I'd like to see an actual vote by head coaches, along with how they vote. I don't need someone's opinion how their head coach would vote. I'd like to see the actual numbers. It seems to me the squeaky wheel for change on this topic is from fans of top level programs. If by chance there has been a coaches vote, find it and post it.

I posted the voting results, let's hear your opinion now.

VOR, if I may, I think what RCC9 is trying to say is that there are teams "eliminated" from continuing on in the postseason, in the regular season, when there's more than 4 teams in a district. The instance that has been mentioned already, Cooper-Grant County, was pretty much a "play-in" game. You win, you're in. You lose, you stay home. I think both of you are saying the same thing, but looking at it from different points of view (winners vs. losers). For the winners, it's a game that allowed you to qualify for the "official tournament". For the losers, though, it was an elimination game...hence RCC9's contention that it's basically a playoff game during the regular season.

 

I appreciate the post. Yes, I understand what you are saying and that there are some teams eliminated frmo post season play in football. I just completely disagree with how RCC9 looks at that.

 

It isn't a perfect world and there are some exceptions in football to everyone getting into post season play. RCC9 is saying because there are some teams eliminated from post season, that means all regular season district games are the same as the district tournaments in basketball. I don't agree with that. I am comparing post season play in all the sports and if anything, football is the least watered down since there are some teams who don't make post season play. In all the other sports, all the teams get to play in the post season - even that 0-30 basketball team. I wish every football team in the state was able to play a playoff game and am disappointed for those teams that don't qualify. I am sure if the KHSAA could figure out a way to include them, they would and I would agree with it.

 

Yes, there are more titles awarded in football than any other sport. The closest to football is track, where there are three state titles. But there have always been more state titles in football. It is just the nature of the sport.

Let me ask this. Since going to 2 teams seemed to be an option at one time and received many votes, lets use a hypothetical.

 

If they went to 2 teams advance from each district, how would the OUTCOMES of each district process would be different? Because the football district process wouldn't change, just the number of teams that advance. So explain to me how bball and football would be different if that was the case.

 

You say regular season vs post season. Well wouldn't the district games in football essentially be the beginning of post season elimination if they only advanced two teams?...keeping in mind that the PROCESS would stay exactly the same.

 

This used to be the case. Districts were 7-9 teams and 4 advanced. Teams were eliminated by the "regular season" district process. Then they cut the number of teams in the district in half and didn't cut down the number of teams that earn a spot to advance from each district. Hence watered down state playoffs!

 

 

So if you agree that IF they went to 2 teams and the process doesn't change on HOW they get to the two teams, would you agree that bball and football would be very similar outcomes for who advances? 4-5 teams districts with two teams advancing at the end of the district process? Just because one is determined in season and one is determined after the regular season makes no difference. Is still distict elimination. And my point is I feel too many teams advance out of district elimination in football.

We play in a district with 5 other teams, meaning that two of us are not going to make the playoffs each year. This has always given us something to play for and in our district, there are usually some very meaningful games at the end of the year. Our kids feel a sense of pride when they make the playoffs. We have only made the playoffs a few times in our school's history, but when we do we know it means something. I know there are travel issues that cause some districts to just have 4 teams, but to me if some teams get into the playoffs just because they are in a 4-team district, it isn't fair for the teams that don't make it. I do not think that everyone should make it, but I do think that there needs to be the same number of teams in a district. Everyone should have a chance to make it, but must earn it.

Let me ask this. Since going to 2 teams seemed to be an option at one time and received many votes, lets use a hypothetical.

 

If they went to 2 teams advance from each district, how would the OUTCOMES of each district process would be different? Because the football district process wouldn't change, just the number of teams that advance. So explain to me how bball and football would be different if that was the case.

 

You say regular season vs post season. Well wouldn't the district games in football essentially be the beginning of post season elimination if they only advanced two teams?...keeping in mind that the PROCESS would stay exactly the same.

 

This used to be the case. Districts were 7-9 teams and 4 advanced. Teams were eliminated by the "regular season" district process. Then they cut the number of teams in the district in half and didn't cut down the number of teams that earn a spot to advance from each district. Hence watered down state playoffs!

 

 

So if you agree that IF they went to 2 teams and the process doesn't change on HOW they get to the two teams, would you agree that bball and football would be very similar outcomes for who advances? 4-5 teams districts with two teams advancing at the end of the district process? Just because one is determined in season and one is determined after the regular season makes no difference. Is still distict elimination. And my point is I feel too many teams advance out of district elimination in football.

 

No, the district process in basketball and football would not be the same/similar if they changed the rules in football to two teams per district qualifying for post season. For them to be the same, basketball would have to use their regular season district games to determine the top two teams in the district and there would be no district tournaments. The top two basketball teams in each district at the end of the regular season would qualify for the regional and all the other basketball teams would not play any post season games.