Much of the hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing over the public-private issue has been a case of misplaced blame.

 

I have long theorized that the A-No. 1 advantage that private schools have is, coincidentally, also an advantage for independent city school systems with longstanding traditions: overwhelming community support.

 

For our state's public county schools, we are just now seeing the first and second generations of parents who now have children playing sports at the county high school they played for. For that first and second generation, however, their parents would have instead graduated from one of the smaller, pre-consolidation high schools in the county.

 

I'll use Laurel County as an example, since I know the names of the old schools, but you can insert your old schools as well. The current students' grandparents likely went to Bush, Lily, Hazel Green or London HS. Those people don't have any real loyalty to the new Laurel County school that came along in around 1970, or the split schools after unless they're in the Sweet 16 (SL in recent years). Another killer is that most of Kentucky's smaller, pre-consolidation schools did not have football, while everybody had a basketball team.

 

When the grandparents' kids played their ball in the 80s or 90s, they worked the concession stand, carried the chains, sold tickets, helped out as an assistant coach, fed the team on Fridays like madmen while their kids were playing. After graduation, however, most of those people were ghosts. They might show up and cheer the next season after their kids graduated because they still had some feeling for the juniors who played with their kids last year, but that's about it.

 

Those kids of the 80s and 90s learned a bad habit from their parents, and many do the same now at their alma mater while their child is playing. After graduation though, they're pretty much history other than a handful of exceptions.

 

Some places I go I see people who haven't had a kid in the school system in 20 years working every week in the concession stand. Other places will be a yearly rotating cast of parents. It's not a big surprise that group one usually has state championship trophies while the other generally whines about unfair advantages and recruiting.

 

 

 

 

OK, let's hear it ...

Jim,

 

An interesting twist to the typical debate. I tend to agree with you. However, I would add that the county schools really, really like to ADD another school instead of investing in an existing school to help build better facilities and provide larger enrollment. I wonder what kind of program pride Nelson County Central will have in the next few years. Martha Layne Collins? I think we are saying the same thing though. It's all about vested interest. Those who don't have it usually resort to whining. Those that do have it will resort to manning a phone in a telethon, working concessions and writing checks to their alma mater. I think your idea is fresh though. But the opposition would still just look for the easy way out, as does the majority of society. "It ain't me, so it's gotta be you". Good post.

A thought-provoking post, Jim.

 

My only question is this. How exactly does community/alumni support translate to wins and championships on the field? Do the kids work harder and play beter because they know their parents and grandparents are selling popcorn or striping the field?

A thought-provoking post, Jim.

 

My only question is this. How exactly does community/alumni support translate to wins and championships on the field? Do the kids work harder and play beter because they know their parents and grandparents are selling popcorn or striping the field?

 

I would think there is more money from having established Booster Clubs and more long term Coaching Staffs. Also there is more overall stability and community pride that develops. Actually growing up wanting to play for your school. Instead of the "What about Me" attitudes you see all too often. It just builds and builds I think. So then it trickles down to the Middle School and all the way down to the Youth League too. Good thread no doubt.

Actually yes, they do. I have long held the belief in the crux uf JS's theory. He is absolutely correct in suggesting that the county schools are incorrect in their attacks against privates schools. (Said the long time small public school coach). And, he has also proven another of my theories and that is that once the larger public schools would ever win their battle and eliminate the private schools from KHSAA competition, they would set their sites on the small independent schools as "unfair competitors." But, back to the issue, yes, long standing relationships with families and communities are clearly an indicator of success in my opinion. "Tradition" really means nothing more than, "we've all been here a long time and we know what it takes to be a winning program AND we're all committed to that goal." Private schools have it mostly by virtue of the social and economic ties between their schools, their parishes and their families. Pretty much the same with smaller independents. YES, there is the added issue of the ability of these schools to admit a percentage of kids from the "outside," but those numbers are far, far fewer than the big school whiners would have everyone believe. Just as numbers alone don't always determine success (although that is a more accurate predictor of success normally), nor does the ability to extend boundaries or open admission criteria (Silver Grove, Berea, etc.) I agree JS, your premise is correct. Schools need investment and commitment to be successful both athletically and academically.

I would think there is more money from having established Booster Clubs and more long term Coaching Staffs. Also there is more overall stability and community pride that develops. Actually growing up wanting to play for your school. Instead of the "What about Me" attitudes you see all too often. It just builds and builds I think. So then it trickles down to the Middle School and all the way down to the Youth League too. Good thread no doubt.

 

I can see that. I think a firmly-established youth program staffed with knowledgeable coaches is critical to continued success at the high-school level. That goes for sports other than football, obviously.

 

I agree - an excellent thread topic.

Not sure how consolidation effects football success, I think it probably helps it. But the vanishing of small community schools and the consolidation into super districts....IS NOT beneficial to our country or are kids. Community, school spirit, and pride in your environment are slowly becoming a thing of the past. I am for small community based schools.

The reasons for such are numerous and very debatable, but take a look at the number of state champions over the years from private schools, independent schools and county schools. The latter win considerably fewer state titles than the others.

The reasons for such are numerous and very debatable, but take a look at the number of state champions over the years from private schools, independent schools and county schools. The latter win considerably fewer state titles than the others.

 

I think part of the problem is the culling of players prior to high school. For instance, Garrard County High School has been in existence since 1964. But prior to 1990 there was no middle school; there was Paint Lick, Camp Dick, Buckeye, and Lancaster Junior Highs. That meant four basketball teams, four football teams, four everything teams. Now the middle school has to have a manageable number of players and so for many sports they have to cut players. Once many kids are cut in middle school, they move on to something else.

 

Now if we still had four junior highs, we would in theory get 5-7 basketball players from each school that have played a lot of ball. We'd get some equivalent in all of the sports. But instead we get the 12 that made the middle school team, 6+ of which mostly rode the bench. That's why we don't have freshman teams any more and often have JVs that play varsity, too.

 

And to top all of this off, as someone else mentioned, pride has all but disappeared. No one has any connection to the middle school, but the ties to the old community schools have also almost completely diminished. To conclude, I'm not sure consolidated high schools are a bad thing. But I'm not a fan at all of consolidated middle schools.

A thought-provoking post, Jim.

 

My only question is this. How exactly does community/alumni support translate to wins and championships on the field? Do the kids work harder and play better because they know their parents and grandparents are selling popcorn or striping the field?

I don't know if it's completely explainable, but I would think it's similar to what happens in the classroom when parents are highly involved in their child's progress. Kids with high parental involvement achieve more -- in the classroom, and elsewhere.

Community interest in a program leads to a greater degree of anticipation and general excitement. This in turn leads to greater numbers and kids that stay more ingaged in thier sport and thus work harder. More kids that work harder leads to success. Pretty simple.

$$$$$$ and travel are the 2 things that hinder county schools from succeeding. I honestly believe 80% of the coaches in the state could go to FTH and continue their tradition. However about 20% or less of the coaches could go to Bell or Boyle and continue. County schools deal with trying to transport players to and from school for practice by using activity buses which will limit the amout of practice time. These county school have over 95% free and reduced lunch. When kids become 16 in order to get a car they must work. In these situations most will quit playing ball and work if possible to have car and insurance instead of riding a bus 10-15-20 even 25 miles to and from school and practice. Private schools and city/independant schools can in most cases keep the players at practice until 6-7-8 oclock or when weather is to hot bring them in at night. County schools would run activity buses at usually 6:00 and have very difficult time sending players home after school and then expecting them to be able to get back for a late practice if weather was too hot. I could ramble on but will wait for some response to this.

I honestly believe 80% of the coaches in the state could go to FTH and continue their tradition.

Not a chance in the world.

I had never thought about it like this but I think you have an excellent point. On the most basic level I think a football teams success stems from the hardwork and dedication of their players and coaches, and the talent level, numbers, things like that.

 

But, when it comes to building a program I absolutely think that Private, Independent and long-standing community based schools have an advantage for the reason you mentioned, people in those situations are alumni and their families are alumni of that particular school. A program is so much bigger than the current players and coaching staff. You need a good support system. People who are willing to work hard at fund-raising, concessions, and other things that help provide money for the things teams need. They need good support all the way up too. Pee-wee, middle school, everything.

 

I think in schools were the entire family is alumni of that specific school it is much easier to accomplish these goals, because everyone in the community has ownership in the program. It's not just their kids teams for the 4 years they're there. It's their program for life. JMO.

I agree with the idea that JS has but would add that it is just as, if not more, dangerous when the opposite approach is taken. Consolodating into larger schools does wipe out community and alumni support but so does county expansion. Take for example the Boone Co. schools. If lived on Pleasant Valley Rd 20 years ago you graduated from Boone Co. HS. Lets say you still live in the same area now and have two children ages 16 and 21. The child that is 21 would have graduated from Ryle, with the child that is 16 attending Cooper HS. How is that for parental support? 3 people living in the exact same place over a 20 year span would attend 3 different high schools.

 

And don't even get me started on how the expansion of the school system further waters down the exisiting schools. The proof is in the numbers. Look at how BC has done against Trinity when there was no Ryle, then post Ryle, and now post Cooper.

 

So what is the right answer then? Continue to add on to existing schools? Combine schools into "mega" schools? Keep smaller schools open despite enormous facility costs? I'm not sure there is a good answer that benefits both athletics and academics.