June 12, 201016 yr Aside from the numbers, in a 1-on-1 game in their respective primes, why should I pick MJ? They are the same height, same build, same athleticsm and Kobe has a better jumper. Why in the world should I take MJ? Individually, you lose nothing with either one. As far as team players, you lose nothing with either one. MJ's teammates hated him too. As far as competitiveness, you lose nothing with either one. Kobe is excelling in a present day NBA that offers a higher quality of basketball compared to MJ's era. Why should I take MJ? Why?
June 12, 201016 yr Even looking at their numbers, they are so close in each and every category. The only separation comes from Kobe averaging 25.3 pts a game and MJ averaging 30.1. Other than that, the stats are a wash, IMO. I have watched both of these guys entire careers and yes I have loathed MJ my whole life and will continue to but for the life of me I wish people would stop acting like MJ would just dominate Kobe because that is so far from the truth. In 10 games MJ may win 6 out of 10 but no more than that, if that. Granted this is all opinion as there is no true way to determine these things but just because MJ has 6 titles and Kobe is working on number 5 does not make MJ automatically better than Kobe the same way the fact that Kobe is in the NBA Finals(AGAIN) that it automatically makes him better than LeBron.
June 12, 201016 yr Ok for instance: .........................................Jordan...........................................Kobe............. Championships.......................6.................................................4 (*5)........... Finals MVP.............................6.................................................1................... Season MVP...........................5.................................................1.................. Scoring Titles........................10................................................2.................. All-Star/Seasons played.........14/*15.........................................12/14............ Defensive POY.......................1..................................................0.................. 1st Team NBA.......................10................................................8.................. 1st Team Def........................9..................................................8................. ROY....................................yes...............................................no................. Career Stats Jordan-........30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2.35 SPG, .8 BPG. 49.7 FG%, 32.7 3PT%, 83.5% FT. Kobe -.........25.3 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.7 APG, 1.50 SPG, .6 BPG. 45.5 FG%, 34.0 3PT%, 83.8% FT. Still think it's close? Kobe really can't even catch MJ, because next season he will have matched how long Jordan played. Truthfully it would be this season, because you shouldn't count 94-95 IMO because he only played 17 games in the regular season and he had been away from basketball for almost 2 years. Through the same amount of seasons played, Kobe is ahead in only two categories in 3 PT% and FT% and by a slim margin. Also, Kobe won his first 3 titles in about the worst era for the NBA since the early days. When VC and TMac are prime tickets you know it's bad, it was the years after Jordan and most of the league wasn't that good. That's not trying to take anything away from the Lakers, they were the best team I can remember besides Jordan's Bulls, but you can't say Jordan had no competition without mentioning that. They played the Pacers who weren't bad, the 76ers who wouldn't have sniffed a Finals in today's NBA and the Nets who would have no hope for getting to the ship in today's East IMO. My eyes tell me that Jordan was on another level from anyone else, and I think the stats back that up. If they played one on one 10 times (and both were in their primes) I think Kobe might be able to squeeze out 3 wins and IMO that's being extremely generous. No disrespect to Kobe, he's been the best player of the post-Jordan era but I think comparing him to Jordan and skipping guys like Magic, Russell and Chamberlain is disrespectful especially to Magic. Competely well said. PP is just biased towards Kobe and his Lakers and doesn't realize the reality that Kobe isn't on MJ's level. No one is. Kobe wasn't even the best player for three of his championships! I like Kobe, I respect his game and think he is one of the best players to ever play the game. He reminds me the most of Jordan, but still not even comparable in my opinion. Kobe had to have Shaq to win and then had to have Gasol. MJ won his with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley holding down the middle. Hardly comparable to Kobe's big men. Once again, not taking away Kobe's titles, they are well deserved. But that needs mentioned when comparing players. MJ has better D than Kobe and could guard Kobe better than vice versa IMO. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter because basketball is a five-on-five sport.
June 12, 201016 yr Aside from the numbers, in a 1-on-1 game in their respective primes, why should I pick MJ? They are the same height, same build, same athleticsm and Kobe has a better jumper. Why in the world should I take MJ? Individually, you lose nothing with either one. As far as team players, you lose nothing with either one. MJ's teammates hated him too. As far as competitiveness, you lose nothing with either one. Kobe is excelling in a present day NBA that offers a higher quality of basketball compared to MJ's era. Why should I take MJ? Why? Better shooter? Jordan shot a higher percentage from the field, so I don't see how that is a valid statement. Kobe shot better from 3 but not by much. Jordan was the better athlete, defender, and had the same move but was much quicker with using them. Watching old Jordan and then watching Kobe really makes you see the difference when you're trying to be unbiased. I actually like Kobe better because Jordan's ego kills me, but they aren't close at all IMO. To me, Jordan was twice the player that Kobe is. Even looking at their numbers, they are so close in each and every category. The only separation comes from Kobe averaging 25.3 pts a game and MJ averaging 30.1. Other than that, the stats are a wash, IMO. I have watched both of these guys entire careers and yes I have loathed MJ my whole life and will continue to but for the life of me I wish people would stop acting like MJ would just dominate Kobe because that is so far from the truth. In 10 games MJ may win 6 out of 10 but no more than that, if that. Granted this is all opinion as there is no true way to determine these things but just because MJ has 6 titles and Kobe is working on number 5 does not make MJ automatically better than Kobe the same way the fact that Kobe is in the NBA Finals(AGAIN) that it automatically makes him better than LeBron. You're too biased buddy. The numbers say otherwise. Many people's view on watching the two says otherwise. You love Kobe and admit that you hate Jordan, 6 titles doesn't make Kobe any closer to Jordan IMO. Jordan was in a class by himself and Kobe can't reach it. No one else really can or probably will for a long time either. Young Jordan was better than a young Kobe by a long shot. Prime Jordan was better than Kobe by a long shot. Old Jordan was better than this Kobe by a considerable margin.
June 12, 201016 yr Anyone who puts Kobe (or LeBron) in the GOAT comparison should stop and just admit that their bias has blinded them and made them incapable of evaluating the situation. Kobe plays like Jordan, but outside of 3 point and FT shooting, Jordan was much better overall. I would hope that most of us would take the 35 year old Jordan against Utah over this 31 year old Kobe, and if you go to the prime of their careers it's not even a competition. Kobe is the best competitor in the league but he still isn't any where close to where Jordan was. I don't care how many titles he gets the two should never be compared IMO. Put Jordan with Hakeem Olajuwon or Ewing (like Kobe had Shaq) early in his career and he's challenging Bill Russell for most titles all-time. Back to the subject at hand though, I just think you're putting Kobe on too high a pedestal. He's human, he's not used to having to play both ends of the floor in the playoffs and he's not used to being guarded like the Celtics do. What player in the Western Conference playoffs presented the problems that Rondo or Allen give Kobe? Westbrook is good, but he was too green to do anything against the Mamba. You don't have to guard Wes Matthews or Grant Hill. It's tiring to have to play both sides of the ball, especially against a defense as good and physical as Boston. Forgive Kobe if he has some mental lapses caused by fatigue or just excellent defense. As for nearly winning, LA got dominated last night statistically. I don't think they would have won even without the subs stepping up for Boston. Paul Pierce closed out the game, and if he had to come back in earlier I think he still would have been enough to get the W for the Celtics. Good post CCC. Totally agree on MJ too. :thumb:
June 12, 201016 yr Competely well said. PP is just biased towards Kobe and his Lakers and doesn't realize the reality that Kobe isn't on MJ's level. No one is. Kobe wasn't even the best player for three of his championships! I like Kobe, I respect his game and think he is one of the best players to ever play the game. He reminds me the most of Jordan, but still not even comparable in my opinion. Kobe had to have Shaq to win and then had to have Gasol. MJ won his with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley holding down the middle. Hardly comparable to Kobe's big men. Once again, not taking away Kobe's titles, they are well deserved. But that needs mentioned when comparing players. MJ has better D than Kobe and could guard Kobe better than vice versa IMO. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter because basketball is a five-on-five sport. And you are taking away the fact that Kobe played Pippen to Shaq's MJ when Kobe was in the 21,22,23,24 year old range. MJ wasn't winning titles at that age. MJ wasn't even good enough to go pro from high school so that right there tells me that Kobe is and was further along than MJ at an earlier age and he was still an integral part of the Lakers winning 3 in a row. To deny that is unfathomable to me. MJ didn't win squat without Pippen and Grant becoming the players they were. He couldn't do it by himself, just like Kobe couldn't. Just like the Big 3 couldn't. Just like Tim Duncan couldn't. Just like the Detroit Pistons couldn't. Just like Magic Johnson couldn't. Just like Bill Russell couldn't. Just like Larry Bird couldn't. How come no one talks about how much help all superstars have gotten from teammates but Kobe always takes a beating for having Shaq and Gasol? Talk about a double standard. What superstar has won it all by himself? Name 1. You guys keep throwing this 5 on 5 stuff but Kobe takes a hit because he never won it all by himself? What great vaunted superstar has? Chicago never used their big men, they used Pippen and MJ and Grant. Later they used MJ, Pippen and Rodman. Had they had a big man like Shaq, they would have used their big man then. Not to mention, Shaq got swept in the Finals until he went to the Finals with Kobe and then DWade carried him to his 4th title. If the Lakers win this year, that will be 5 for Kobe while Shaq is stuck trying to find someone else's coattails to carry him to his number 5 while Kobe is still poised for to compete for another next year. Edited June 12, 201016 yr by PurplePride92
June 12, 201016 yr And you are taking away the fact that Kobe played Pippen to Shaq's MJ when Kobe was 21,22,23,24 year old range. MJ wasn't winning titles at that age. MJ wasn't even good enough to go pro from high school so that right there tells me that Kobe is and was further along than MJ at an earlier age and he was still an integral part of the Lakers winning 3 in a row. To deny that is unfathomable to me. MJ didn't win squat without Pippen and Grant and becoming the players they were. He couldn't do it by himself, just like Kobe couldn't. Just like the Big 3 couldn't. Just like Tim Duncan couldn't. Just like the Detroit Pistons couldn't. Just like Magic Johnson couldn't. Just like Bill Russell couldn't. Just like Larry Bird couldn't. How come no one talks about how much help all superstars have gotten from teammates but Kobe always takes a beating for having Shaq and Gasol? Talk about a double standard. What superstar has won it all by himself? Name 1. You guys keep throwing this 5 on 5 stuff but Kobe takes a hit because he never won it all by himself? What great vaunted superstar has? Chicago never used their big men, they used Pippen and MJ and Grant. Later they used MJ, Pippen and Rodman. Had they had a big man like Shaq, they would have used their big man then. Not to mention, Shaq got swept in the Finals until he went to the Finals with Kobe and then DWade carried him to his 4th title. If the Lakers win this year, that will be 5 for Kobe while Shaq is stuck trying to find someone else's coattails to carry him to his number 5 while Kobe is still poised for to compete for another next year. I'm not saying Kobe is better than MJ was, but I do think this is a strong argument.
June 12, 201016 yr Better shooter? Jordan shot a higher percentage from the field, so I don't see how that is a valid statement. Kobe shot better from 3 but not by much. Jordan was the better athlete, defender, and had the same move but was much quicker with using them. Watching old Jordan and then watching Kobe really makes you see the difference when you're trying to be unbiased. I actually like Kobe better because Jordan's ego kills me, but they aren't close at all IMO. To me, Jordan was twice the player that Kobe is. You're too biased buddy. The numbers say otherwise. Many people's view on watching the two says otherwise. You love Kobe and admit that you hate Jordan, 6 titles doesn't make Kobe any closer to Jordan IMO. Jordan was in a class by himself and Kobe can't reach it. No one else really can or probably will for a long time either. Young Jordan was better than a young Kobe by a long shot. Prime Jordan was better than Kobe by a long shot. Old Jordan was better than this Kobe by a considerable margin. You're doggone right I am biased but you guys are too. You guys are so enamored by MJ's mystique that no one can tell me how MJ is so much better than Kobe other than to say he has better stats and more rings. Hollow argument. Is Robert Horry better than Kobe too? Come on, one day you guys use stats to prove a point, the next you don't. Their skill level, athletic level, competitive nature and basketball I.Q. are pretty much identical. How is it not? Is anyone going to tell me how MJ was better or is everyone just going to say he is better? Not one person has told me how he was better. Numbers from a different era mean nothing to me. How is he better? Like I said, I watched both of their careers in entirety and aside from shot selection, they look like the same player to me. And Kobe's jumper is and has always been better than MJ's jumper. Always. MJ's shooting percentage is higher because a majority of his shots at the beginning of his career were 10 feet in. His jumper was broke until he got into his 30's. Also, compare the guys who were guarding MJ throughout his career to guys that were guarding Kobe throughout his career and IMO, Kobe has had to play against a better kind of defending basketball player. MJ was shooting over guys because he was taller than them. Kobe is shooting over guys his height because he elevates higher and uses his craftiness to get his shot off.
June 12, 201016 yr Competely well said. PP is just biased towards Kobe and his Lakers and doesn't realize the reality that Kobe isn't on MJ's level. No one is. Kobe wasn't even the best player for three of his championships! I like Kobe, I respect his game and think he is one of the best players to ever play the game. He reminds me the most of Jordan, but still not even comparable in my opinion. Kobe had to have Shaq to win and then had to have Gasol. MJ won his with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley holding down the middle. Hardly comparable to Kobe's big men. Once again, not taking away Kobe's titles, they are well deserved. But that needs mentioned when comparing players. MJ has better D than Kobe and could guard Kobe better than vice versa IMO. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter because basketball is a five-on-five sport. As for the bolded, that is an empty statement. Name one person who played in MJ's era who was as good as Kobe that MJ locked down defensively. Name one.
June 12, 201016 yr Why don't we all just quit having the same argument that I've been seeing for 8 years now. None of you will ever change your mind. Just like no one changes their mind about Kobe/Shaq, which the best part of the Lakers winning this series will be that one will likely be over.
June 12, 201016 yr Was Wilt the stilt better than Shaq? That's a question for someone older than me.:lol: I never got to see Wilt play. I'd say that is another great debate.
June 12, 201016 yr Why don't we all just quit having the same argument that I've been seeing for 8 years now. None of you will ever change your mind. Just like no one changes their mind about Kobe/Shaq, which the best part of the Lakers winning this series will be that one will likely be over. Agreed. I am done with Kobe/MJ argument for now. I had to respond to the statements though. Couldn't help myself. Sorry.:cool::idunno:
June 12, 201016 yr I saw where Bynum had his knee drained and is listed as questionable. He had this done right before the Finals started so hopefully he'll be good to go for a the next couple/few games.
June 12, 201016 yr Is anyone going to tell me how MJ was better or is everyone just going to say he is better? Is that not what this post does...? Ok for instance: .........................................Jordan...........................................Kobe............. Championships.......................6.................................................4 (*5)........... Finals MVP.............................6.................................................1................... Season MVP...........................5.................................................1.................. Scoring Titles........................10................................................2.................. All-Star/Seasons played.........14/*15.........................................12/14............ Defensive POY.......................1..................................................0.................. 1st Team NBA.......................10................................................8.................. 1st Team Def........................9..................................................8................. ROY....................................yes...............................................no................. Career Stats Jordan-........30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2.35 SPG, .8 BPG. 49.7 FG%, 32.7 3PT%, 83.5% FT. Kobe -.........25.3 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.7 APG, 1.50 SPG, .6 BPG. 45.5 FG%, 34.0 3PT%, 83.8% FT. Still think it's close? Kobe really can't even catch MJ, because next season he will have matched how long Jordan played. Truthfully it would be this season, because you shouldn't count 94-95 IMO because he only played 17 games in the regular season and he had been away from basketball for almost 2 years. Through the same amount of seasons played, Kobe is ahead in only two categories in 3 PT% and FT% and by a slim margin. Also, Kobe won his first 3 titles in about the worst era for the NBA since the early days. When VC and TMac are prime tickets you know it's bad, it was the years after Jordan and most of the league wasn't that good. That's not trying to take anything away from the Lakers, they were the best team I can remember besides Jordan's Bulls, but you can't say Jordan had no competition without mentioning that. They played the Pacers who weren't bad, the 76ers who wouldn't have sniffed a Finals in today's NBA and the Nets who would have no hope for getting to the ship in today's East IMO. My eyes tell me that Jordan was on another level from anyone else, and I think the stats back that up. If they played one on one 10 times (and both were in their primes) I think Kobe might be able to squeeze out 3 wins and IMO that's being extremely generous. No disrespect to Kobe, he's been the best player of the post-Jordan era but I think comparing him to Jordan and skipping guys like Magic, Russell and Chamberlain is disrespectful especially to Magic. And the difference between all the players you named. They were the best players on their teams that year. Kobe was not. MJ made Scottie Pippen the player he was...Shaq made Kobe the player he was (during those three years). There is your difference. Yes Kobe was extremely important to that team but in the end Shaq made Kobe and MJ made Pippen, that's your difference.
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