With two titles is Roy now the better coach in UNC History?

Roy Williams or Dean Smith?

Why?

Dean Smith. Without him, Roy's titles would have been less likely to have happened. The Dean Smith years made UNC a brand name in college basketball. Without Jordan, Worthy, Perkins, Rasheed Wallace, Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, and countless others UNC would have been a much tougher sale for Roy.

Dean Smith. Without him, Roy's titles would have been less likely to have happened. The Dean Smith years made UNC a brand name in college basketball. Without Jordan, Worthy, Perkins, Rasheed Wallace, Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, and countless others UNC would have been a much tougher sale for Roy.

 

While I agree that UNC basketball would not be what it is without Dean, ... Roy has done a phenomenal job in a time when parity is the key word. During Dean's best years, parity was wishful thinking and the best programs got the best players.

 

But if I had to pick who was the better coach, I would say Roy IMHO.

Dean laid the foundation but Roy is taking it to a new level. To early to tell I think. Dean did it for so long but Roy is off to one heck of a start.

While I agree that UNC basketball would not be what it is without Dean, ... Roy has done a phenomenal job in a time when parity is the key word. During Dean's best years, parity was wishful thinking and the best programs got the best players.

 

But if I had to pick who was the better coach, I would say Roy IMHO.

 

Exactly.

 

And even though Carolina recruits itself, Roy is a hell of a recruiter.

While I agree that UNC basketball would not be what it is without Dean, ... Roy has done a phenomenal job in a time when parity is the key word. During Dean's best years, parity was wishful thinking and the best programs got the best players.

 

But if I had to pick who was the better coach, I would say Roy IMHO.

 

I agree.

While I agree that UNC basketball would not be what it is without Dean, ... Roy has done a phenomenal job in a time when parity is the key word. During Dean's best years, parity was wishful thinking and the best programs got the best players.

 

But if I had to pick who was the better coach, I would say Roy IMHO.

Exactly... a case can be made that Smith underachieved a lot more than he excelled in big games.

Dean Smith had Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins for 3 years, and it still took Sleepy Floyd to throw the ball directly to James Worthy for him to squeak one title out of that mess.

Dean Smith had Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins for 3 years, and it still took Sleepy Floyd to throw the ball directly to James Worthy for him to squeak one title out of that mess.

And Chris Webber had to call a timeout to secure his other title.

Exactly... a case can be made that Smith underachieved a lot more than he excelled in big games.

 

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

I think this means I agree with you.

Dean Smith had Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins for 3 years, and it still took Sleepy Floyd to throw the ball directly to James Worthy for him to squeak one title out of that mess.

 

I think that could be said of anyone in some fashion.

 

If a bad call is not made vs. Villanova late in the game in 2005, does UNC defeat them and go on to Roy's first title?

 

Did Dean "underachieve" all that much?

 

1967-69 First 3 Final Fours. UCLA was king. How can you say they underachieved then?

 

1972 Upset in Final Four by Florida State. They had Bob McAdoo among others and were probably more talented than the Noles but who was going to beat Bill Walton?

 

1977 Lost in final to Marquette. They had lost their starting center, Tom LaGarde, earlier in the year and Walter Davis and Phil Ford were pheoms but the Warriors were playing for a retiring coach and won. Maybe Dean was outcoached then. Maybe.

 

1981 Lost in final to IU. Isaiah Thomas ran wild and even though Dean had a freshman Perkins, a Sophomore Worthy, and a Senior Al Wood - that IU team was on as devestating roll as anyone in the tourney. Push at best.

 

1982 Sure Eric Brown (not Floyd) threw the pass away. But there was no guarantee of points and it's not like UNC didn't have Worthy go off for 28 and Jordan for about 17. Either team deserved to win that game and UNC did make the last shot. I say, not outcoached.

 

1984 I include this because of the last year Jordan played and they had Perkins and Daugherty. However Kenny Smith, PG, broke his hand late in the year and any team without their PG in college is in deep trouble. Outcoached by Knight. Maybe yes. Maybe push.

 

1991 Lost to Kansas in Final Four. I never thought that team was that great. Hubert Davis, Rick Fox. Foot, KY should have beaten them in Chapel Hill (lost by 3) if not for a few late calls that went powder blue way. Let's say Dean should have won because Kansas was a Cinderella that year. But it could have just been the players were off that night.

 

1993 Won it. Webber called the TO but he was trapped, a few seconds left and UM was down by 3 (maybe 2?). With or without the TO, UNC looked in the driver's seat. BTW, that was the fabled Fab 5. How did a collection whose stars were Montross, Williams and Lynch ever beat that other worldly team? Not outcoached here.

 

1995 Lost to Arkansas in the Final Four. He had Stackhouse and Wallace, and upset UK, but they lost to the defending National Champs. I don't see it as a blown coaching job. Arkansas was a 1 seed and UNC a 2 seed. Can't claim he was outcoached on this one.

 

1997 Lost in the Final Four to Arizona. This one is head scratching. But then how does UK feel about it? Probably outcoached. But then again, Arizona was on a pretty good Cinderella run.

 

 

There are other years we could throw in, I'm sure. Circumstances and competition often define post season success more than we think.

 

Dean dealt with early defections from Bob McAdoo, James Worthy, Michael Jordan, among others. He was in the competition even if he didn't always win. Then he often gets castigate when he does.

 

I am no Dean Smith or UNC fan. That is fact. I just think it sometimes gets too easy to call one coach better than the other over one factor (in this case Titles).

Roy Williams is standing on Dean Smiths shoulders. Dean built Carolina. Dean built Roy. He learned everything from Dean. Roy does seem to be more relaxed in big spots than Dean.

Exactly... a case can be made that Smith underachieved a lot more than he excelled in big games.

 

A very strong case, IMO.

 

I'm still amazed that he only won two titles when I look at all the talent he coached.

 

I still wouldn't rate Roy Williams ahead of him at this point. Let's not forget that Roy has had some struggles in big spots himself.

 

See last year's beatdown from his old team for a recent example. Or Kansas losing to Syracuse in the title game a few years ago? Or a handful of final four disappointments from his KU days?

I think that could be said of anyone in some fashion.

 

If a bad call is not made vs. Villanova late in the game in 2005, does UNC defeat them and go on to Roy's first title?

 

Did Dean "underachieve" all that much?

 

1967-69 First 3 Final Fours. UCLA was king. How can you say they underachieved then?

 

1972 Upset in Final Four by Florida State. They had Bob McAdoo among others and were probably more talented than the Noles but who was going to beat Bill Walton?

 

1977 Lost in final to Marquette. They had lost their starting center, Tom LaGarde, earlier in the year and Walter Davis and Phil Ford were pheoms but the Warriors were playing for a retiring coach and won. Maybe Dean was outcoached then. Maybe.

 

1981 Lost in final to IU. Isaiah Thomas ran wild and even though Dean had a freshman Perkins, a Sophomore Worthy, and a Senior Al Wood - that IU team was on as devestating roll as anyone in the tourney. Push at best.

 

1982 Sure Eric Brown (not Floyd) threw the pass away. But there was no guarantee of points and it's not like UNC didn't have Worthy go off for 28 and Jordan for about 17. Either team deserved to win that game and UNC did make the last shot. I say, not outcoached.

 

1984 I include this because of the last year Jordan played and they had Perkins and Daugherty. However Kenny Smith, PG, broke his hand late in the year and any team without their PG in college is in deep trouble. Outcoached by Knight. Maybe yes. Maybe push.

 

1991 Lost to Kansas in Final Four. I never thought that team was that great. Hubert Davis, Rick Fox. Foot, KY should have beaten them in Chapel Hill (lost by 3) if not for a few late calls that went powder blue way. Let's say Dean should have won because Kansas was a Cinderella that year. But it could have just been the players were off that night.

 

1993 Won it. Webber called the TO but he was trapped, a few seconds left and UM was down by 3 (maybe 2?). With or without the TO, UNC looked in the driver's seat. BTW, that was the fabled Fab 5. How did a collection whose stars were Montross, Williams and Lynch ever beat that other worldly team? Not outcoached here.

 

1995 Lost to Arkansas in the Final Four. He had Stackhouse and Wallace, and upset UK, but they lost to the defending National Champs. I don't see it as a blown coaching job. Arkansas was a 1 seed and UNC a 2 seed. Can't claim he was outcoached on this one.

 

1997 Lost in the Final Four to Arizona. This one is head scratching. But then how does UK feel about it? Probably outcoached. But then again, Arizona was on a pretty good Cinderella run.

 

 

There are other years we could throw in, I'm sure. Circumstances and competition often define post season success more than we think.

 

Dean dealt with early defections from Bob McAdoo, James Worthy, Michael Jordan, among others. He was in the competition even if he didn't always win. Then he often gets castigate when he does.

 

I am no Dean Smith or UNC fan. That is fact. I just think it sometimes gets too easy to call one coach better than the other over one factor (in this case Titles).

Early deflections or not, and fair or not, UNC during the Dean Smith era had more talent than any other team on an annual basis and he had two titles to show for it.

 

He did a fine job, but I still think it is fair to say that for the level of talent he had, Smith did not always maximize.

 

But in fairness, I do not think it is fair to always judge a coach on how they do in a single elimination tournament.

 

And, FWIW, Fred Brown threw away the pass and I do not think Arkansas was a 1 seed in '95.

A very strong case, IMO.

 

I'm still amazed that he only won two titles when I look at all the talent he coached.

 

I still wouldn't rate Roy Williams ahead of him at this point. Let's not forget that Roy has had some struggles in big spots himself.

 

See last year's beatdown from his old team for a recent example. Or Kansas losing to Syracuse in the title game a few years ago? Or a handful of final four disappointments from his KU days?

True, but comparing their stints at UNC, Roy is well on his way to being UNC's best coach IMO.