I really hope then, that you are against a Public/Private split. :lol:

 

Yes, I am against it, they need to pull up their pants, maybe wear a belt...... lol

Unless you're on the end that benefits, which I usually am.

 

 

I disliked it from the beginning when I first experienced it in high school. You get the grade you deserve and earn, curving it teaches people nothing. If everyone failed a test and it is curved then it is likely a failing of the teacher's methods and they need to revise their methods to better teach it in the future. I disagreed with them in high school, college and while I was taking me Ed. classes in college.

I feel bad that you have decided that you would prefer a President whose policies (and I won't say McCain's are THAT much better) would have prevented your own personal rise that you have accomplished in your life. I feel ever worse that you are doing so partly because you feel that conservatives (you know, those ones who donate more money to non-religious charitable organizations) feel disdain for the poor. I hope I haven't contributed to that attitude. Like I have stated many times on this board, the day I became a conservative was the day that I came to believe that small government, low taxes, and the free market are the best way to rid our country of as much poverty as possible, as opposed to bogging down our economy, and preventing the poor from helping themselves.

Why in the world do you feel bad? I would much rather my vote help the entire country than only think of my own situation. I don't consider you as conservative as you may see yourself. You've expressed some thoughts on here that lead me to believe you are more "middle of the road" than "far right". You're beliefs on free market and poverty should be explored more deeply in another thread. I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

 

Furthermore, I look beyond just the well-being of the poor of our country, and I look to help the rest of poor in the world, many of whom could benefit from increased free trade- however, Obama has said things against trade agreements in Washington, resorting to the stereotypical "it's only good for corporations."

I am looking beyond the poor of our country as well. But from a different perspective. Obama's comments about trade agreements have been misconstrued, from what I've been able to understand...admitting of course that I'm pretty much an economic imbecile.

 

RM, I find myself being condescending in my regular life when I am talking to my boss at work. Unfortunately, I struggle to keep my tone from sounding so. As respectfully as I can say it, the goals that you want to accomplish sound good, but I think that the policies that you have bought into appeal more to the emotions and then to your intellect. Most everything you say in the above post sounds good, I don't think it will work though.

 

Whether you vote your emotions, your heart, or your intellect, the chance is there that it won't work. Heck, everyone on here told me I was crazy to vote against Bush last election. I still think I made the right choice, even though my candidate lost. At least I can, in good conscience, say I didn't want to "go there", and the rest can't say that. I may very well be wrong...have been before. But, I also firmly believe that someone like Obama is more likely to "think outside the box" than McCain.

 

As I stated in my post, my perception is PART of my choice. There was actually a lot of thought put into my decision. A lot of research, a lot of reading, a lot of discussion with "real" people I respect. But, it surprises me not that the thing that those who disagree with me will key in on, is that. To them, anyone who could vote for Obama has no intellect.

Yes I know the curve and that is not what I am talking about, and you know the point I am getting at.

 

Let me say it in a better way. If you worked to get an A, yet other got C's, so instead of giving you an A, he gives you the C like the others are getting....

I think a better way to put would be you get an A and I get an F. The teacher takes points from your grade and gives them to me. Now I get a D or C and you get a B or C.

You know, in a way, the attitudes expressed in P&R regarding the haves and the have-nots mirrors the same type of discussion you see when discussing T and X versus the public schools.

 

T and X continually beat and achieve more success than everybody else. T and X supporters continually talk about their hard work, good coaching, efficient youth programs, supportive fan base and administration as factors in their success. Moreover, they argue that T and X parents don't make any more money than public school parents, and that the school doesn't give scholarships, etc. etc. etc.

 

Detractors holler, to anyone who will listen, that T and X don't work any harder than the publics, that the coaches aren't any better, that the success can only be explained by monetary "cheating" behind the scenes, or some other unlevel playing field. Yet, T and X continue to win, it seems incomprehensible to the have-nots, and so they do, and will continue, to argue that the playing field should be leveled.

 

And, of course, those types of arguments are magnified when times are really bad for the have-nots.

 

Just thought it was a nice Football Forum to P&R segue.

You know, in a way, the attitudes expressed in P&R regarding the haves and the have-nots mirrors the same type of discussion you see when discussing T and X versus the public schools.

 

T and X continually beat and achieve more success than everybody else. T and X supporters continually talk about their hard work, good coaching, efficient youth programs, supportive fan base and administration as factors in their success. Moreover, they argue that T and X parents don't make any more money than public school parents, and that the school doesn't give scholarships, etc. etc. etc.

 

Detractors holler, to anyone who will listen, that T and X don't work any harder than the publics, that the coaches aren't any better, that the success can only be explained by monetary "cheating" behind the scenes, or some other unlevel playing field. Yet, T and X continue to win, it seems incomprehensible to the have-nots, and so they do, and will continue, to argue that the playing field should be leveled.

 

And, of course, those types of arguments are magnified when times are really bad for the have-nots.

 

Just thought it was a nice Football Forum to P&R segue.

 

 

Then you must really be confused by me. :lol:

They are not at all-time highs. Please watch what you post.

 

You are correct, I mean't post GD. It looks like they are the worst in KY since the early 90's.

You are correct, I mean't post GD. It looks like they are the worst in KY since the early 90's.

 

Getting closer but still not right. 6% unemployment is historically average to low. Since WWII it has been higher than 7% in almost every decade at some point. Ford, Carter, and Reagan would have been thrilled with 6%.

 

http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

A lot of research, a lot of reading, a lot of discussion with "real" people I respect. But, it surprises me not that the thing that those who disagree with me will key in on, is that. To them, anyone who could vote for Obama has no intellect.

 

I hope I did not infer the bolded.

I'm against Obama for mainly two reasons. He's for abortion and for universal health care. Those two run together as some of the signs that the world is near the end of times. There's other reasons why I am for McCain too. I may get rediculed for this and I'm sorry for hijacking this thread if that's what I'm doing but that's my opinion. I do feel Obama will win though, which is not good for this country IMO.

 

I read an interesting story from someone who is pro-life. They stated they were voting for Obama because statistics show that his stand and beliefs on abortion have actually led to less abortions than McCain's.

There’s no way to adequately address all your points short of a chapter each. Out of respect for you, I will try to at least hit on the high points of each:

You state your thoughts eloquently. Many I agree with. However, there's a certain tone that disturbs me, and that is the tone that you categorically dismiss the entire list because there are some with whom/which you seem to disdain.

In no way did I dismiss the entire list. That would be absurd. I simply point out that it is equally absurd to embrace the entire list just because of the credible and/or friendly to America supporters on it. Having ten favorable supporters does not excuse the one who would like to see America weakened or defeated IMO. The fact that Mr. Obama has far more “questionable” endorsements than McCain concerns many of us. That is not “fear mongering” but a simple—and I believe sensible (not emotional)—assessment of the facts.

I'll be honest, I am voting for Obama, in part because of the perception that I have of McCain and his supporters is that they think less of the "America" that I live in, than they do the "America" that those who benefit from the current policies live in.

I don’t know how to respond other than to say, I’ve never seriously advocated dividing Americans into classes. I did trot out the old, “Votes should be limited to those actually paying income tax” simply to stir discussion. My true point was, it is fiscally reckless for those simply taking from the system to be able to vote for and empower the candidates who promise them the most for no commensurate return on their parts. My anger isn’t with the poor souls at the bottom of the ladder, but with the shameless politicians purposely pandering to the down and out for no reason other acquiring and maintaining power.

 

I give you credit for a sound intellect. I would be very disappointed however, to learn that you think Obama is appealing to the poor because he has no other agenda than being a great humanitarian.

 

You hit on the true reason in your last comment in this post.

 

If you had any idea of my roots and upbringing, and even my current lifestyle, you’d laugh at the idea that I ever had a silver spoon or an elitist mentality. I’m not against the poor. I’m against keeping the poor, poor. You can’t prove to me that the $1.6 trillion we’ve spent since LBJ in the “War on Poverty” has come anywhere close to achieving the goals it was originally intended to accomplish. We have however, kept a bunch of pandering, ineffective politicians in Washington, squandering hard earned resources that could have been better utilized elsewhere, and with greater effect… for no other reason than “buying votes.”

I'm not very far removed at all from one of those people that many of you constantly eschew....I used to get refunds of all taxes paid. The perception that I've gleaned from reading several years of posts is that I didn't work, that I didn't try, that I didn't contribute to society...that I was a leach.

From what little bit I do know about you, you have always made an effort to provide for yourself and your family. I used to get refunds too. I see no shame whatsoever in working your tail off, and still falling short of the positive income tax mark. My problem is with the politicians who make it possible for (hopefully) the small percentage unwilling to even attempt to provide for themselves and the children they bring into this world. I have a HUGE problem painting all the hard working achievers in this nation as greedy, selfish, and somehow in need of discipline. I have no problem with anyone willing to try. I have a big problem with political “Robin Hoods” riding in telling us they will take care of all our needs. They can’t, they won’t, it is a lie that keeps too many from taking responsibility for themselves.

I'm in no way, shape or form a $250K earner. Heck, I don't even make 1/5 of that, and most likely never will. I don't mind that. One benefit to having "been there" is that I realize that life goes on whether I make $5,000 a year, or $50K a year, or $500K a year. But, I was able to capitalize on some unique (and risky on my part) opportunities that came to me. I don't blame many I know in situations similar to those that I went through for not taking those risks. It's scary, and it could mean the whole house of cards tumbling down. I somehow fell into an industry in which careers can be made by working the way up the ladder without a degree. But I doubt I could make some of the same upward moves without a degree in my industry today.

IMO it’s all about choices and effort. I admire you for not collapsing and whining about how unfair life has treated you, and essentially demanding that others provide for you. I am in no way suggesting that everyone receiving welfare and other government assistance are lazy whiners. We do however, waste incredible resources that would otherwise be better spent on individuals content to suck from the system rather than making an effort… any kind of effort. My genuine and legitimate beef is with the politicians who pander to this group for no other reason than wooing their votes. This IMO merely absorbs resources that could better be invested elsewhere, or returned to those already paying too much.

I perceive from "conservatives" that the person who makes $250K+ per year is a more important part of the American society that I am. As someone who doesn't even have the desire to make that much, I guess I'm a slacker. But, shockingly, that isn't my perception of the American Dream. I didn't know that realizing the American Dream, being a "contributing" American had a price tag. I thought I lived in a country where value wasn't tagged with a price. Yet, I'm finding that apparently, it's more important to protect the wealth of those who have it already, than to give a break to those who don't earn enough to be perceived "worthy" of a break.

This is where you and I are actually trying to say and embrace the same thing, but coming at it from opposite directions. I provide my thoughts on people’s value below, which is not all that different from your own. The difference is, I genuinely do not understand the concept of pulling down the achievers in order to lift the underachievers, in an artificial effort to bulk up the middle. The U.S. economy is not a zero sum game. In a robust and thriving economy, there is no set ceiling on how much money there is to go around. In support of his proposed tax cuts, JFK said “A rising tide lifts all the boats in the harbor.” His point was, no matter how large your boat, whether a dingy, a yacht or an aircraft carrier, an increase of financial generation results in gains for everyone. I genuinely have no problem giving folks in need a helping hand as they improve their circumstances. I see no purpose in providing more handouts however, unless you’re intent on keeping the recipients in need, so they’ll need to keep voting for you.

I know. I'm idealistic. But guess what? I'm also pragmatic. Heck...I believe in private education. I cling to my religion. I feel serious reforms are needed in entitlement agencies. How can it be that I can not fall hook, line and sinker into the "conservative" pool? It's really simple.

I don’t know how simple it is, but I agree with this statement perhaps more than any other you make in this post. I’m hardly hook, line and sinker with any party or agenda either. I’m disappointed with the selection of McCain, but quite frankly, he stinks less than what I think we’re in for under Obama.

I believe that Obama's policies can benefit the majority of Americans.... I think McCain's policies will benefit only those who benefit currently. On this course, I see America continue to dissolve from a classless society, to a society similar to the Victorian Era. There are those with the wealth, the merchants, the servants and the poor. I don't want that for America. I want to see the America where those in the "middle" and the "bottom" are as valued as those at the top.

It’s a broad leap from “valuing” someone because of their character and contribution (or potential contribution) to society, and assigning value based upon the balance in their bank accounts. I have never truly advocated assigning value on anyone by the simple standard of their earning power, much less their accumulated wealth. Otherwise, I’d be wild about the opinions of John Kerry, Al Gore, Jay Rockefeller, Ted Kennedy, rap stars, Hollywood stars, etc. With any amount of time in my world, you would find quite the opposite to be true. I have however, said it is stupid to further punish those already pulling ten times their weight, instead of simply learning to say “NO” on occasion to the insidious requests demanded of our federal budget. IMO, we do not need a huge government to feed us, burp us, clean up our messes and cushion us from cradle to grave. I realize this seems selfish and cruel to some, but I think it’s time for us to grow up and be more responsible—on both sides of the aisle.

McCain's policies don't "scare" me. It will be similar to the 'status quo'. How can I be "scared"? I personally have nothing to lose either way. With McCain, I'll be certain to pay more taxes. With Obama, I might pay more taxes. But it's not just about me...it's about millions of "me's", past and present. And they far out number the number of people at the top of the gold pile.

And that my dear lady is exactly why certain politicians pander to these groups, even when it is clearly impossible for them to ever come close to fulfilling the promises they make while deceiving them into casting their precious votes in their favor.

Getting closer but still not right. 6% unemployment is historically average to low. Since WWII it has been higher than 7% in almost every decade at some point. Ford, Carter, and Reagan would have been thrilled with 6%.

 

http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

 

6.7 in July, 6.8 in August. Kentucky is on the verge of 7% and do you believe 2009 will be any better?

 

Kentucky's historically low rate was during the Clinton admin

 

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LASST21000003

6.7 in July, 6.8 in August. Kentucky is on the verge of 7% and do you believe 2009 will be any better?

 

Kentucky's historically low rate was during the Clinton admin

 

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LASST21000003

 

Again you ignore the facts! 7% is nowhere near historic highs in Ky. Just open the site you pasted and change the date to the decade of the 1980's. Times have been extremely worse in the Commonwealth than now. Let me ask you this, do you want the unemployment rate in Ky to be lowered?

It's called a curve. :lol:

 

I'm sorry, but a curve is only there to help the stupid people....There's no reason for it.

You state your thoughts eloquently. Many I agree with. However, there's a certain tone that disturbs me, and that is the tone that you categorically dismiss the entire list because there are some with whom/which you seem to disdain.

 

I'll be honest, I am voting for Obama, in part because of the perception that I have of McCain and his supporters is that they think less of the "America" that I live in, than they do the "America" that those who benefit from the current policies live in.

 

I'm not very far removed at all from one of those people that many of you constantly eschew....I used to get refunds of all taxes paid. The perception that I've gleaned from reading several years of posts is that I didn't work, that I didn't try, that I didn't contribute to society...that I was a leach.

 

I'm in no way, shape or form a $250K earner. Heck, I don't even make 1/5 of that, and most likely never will. I don't mind that. One benefit to having "been there" is that I realize that life goes on whether I make $5,000 a year, or $50K a year, or $500K a year. But, I was able to capitalize on some unique (and risky on my part) opportunities that came to me. I don't blame many I know in situations similar to those that I went through for not taking those risks. It's scary, and it could mean the whole house of cards tumbling down. I somehow fell into an industry in which careers can be made by working the way up the ladder without a degree. But I doubt I could make some of the same upward moves without a degree in my industry today.

 

I perceive from "conservatives" that the person who makes $250K+ per year is a more important part of the American society that I am. As someone who doesn't even have the desire to make that much, I guess I'm a slacker. But, shockingly, that isn't my perception of the American Dream. I didn't know that realizing the American Dream, being a "contributing" American had a price tag. I thought I lived in a country where value wasn't tagged with a price. Yet, I'm finding that apparently, it's more important to protect the wealth of those who have it already, than to give a break to those who don't earn enough to be perceived "worthy" of a break.

 

I know. I'm idealistic. But guess what? I'm also pragmatic. Heck...I believe in private education. I cling to my religion. I feel serious reforms are needed in entitlement agencies. How can it be that I can not fall hook, line and sinker into the "conservative" pool? It's really simple.

 

I believe that Obama's policies can benefit the majority of Americans.... I think McCain's policies will benefit only those who benefit currently. On this course, I see America continue to dissolve from a classless society, to a society similar to the Victorian Era. There are those with the wealth, the merchants, the servants and the poor. I don't want that for America. I want to see the America where those in the "middle" and the "bottom" are as valued as those at the top.

 

McCain's policies don't "scare" me. It will be similar to the 'status quo'. How can I be "scared"? I personally have nothing to lose either way. With McCain, I'll be certain to pay more taxes. With Obama, I might pay more taxes. But it's not just about me...it's about millions of "me's", past and present. And they far out number the number of people at the top of the gold pile.

 

RM, please don't take this as a post that is against you, as that is not what it's intended to be.

 

I really hope that you do not base your opinions, especially for this election, based on what you've read on this board. I know this is a pretty conservative board, but surely you are more intelligent than to believe what you read on here. Again, I'm saying you are, but your post leads me to believe that you're forming your opinion based on what you've read. Please show that I am wrong on this!

 

Everyone, should take the facts that they've read on here, as well as everywhere else, and make a decision based on what's best for them. I know everyone is impacted by the economy, but please everyone do your research. If you feel Obama is the best for you, then by all means, vote for him. I guess my family is a little better off than I had thought....