It is caused by environmental factors and morally wrong.

Free gift that isn't cheap? That doesn't make any sense.

You're right, it doesn't make any sense that the Creator of the universe would leave His throne in Heaven, take on human flesh and all the limited attributes and weaknesses of being human, live, work and teach among us and let us nail Him to a cross just so we can live with Him... but that's exactly what John tells us in the first chapter of his book, and I choose to believe him. :thumb:

You're not talking to a first grader here... :lol:

 

I assumed you knew what I was talking about, and would permit me to be at least somewhat diplomatic... but I guessed wrong.

 

There's no doubt in my mind, that individuals living a homosexual lifestyle have made contributions in many disciplines. I know many of them. That has never been my point.

 

I personally know some former and possibly current adulterers, alcoholics, and idolaters that are some of the nicest, most productive members of our society. BUT it is not the adultery or alcoholism or idolatry or homosexuality that gives their attributes strength.

 

We're aguing in circles here.

 

There is hope for homosexuals, just as there is for all of us regardless of the sins in our lives. We merely need to be willing to turn from our selfish desires, and we clearly (in my mind) need to turn to Jesus Christ.

Well said!:thumb:

I agree in part. On the other hand I feel he means that no one is free of sin, so don't go around criticizing others' lives while you are not better than they.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. But if you are saying there isn't a large difference between the Old Testament law and the New Testament law then we have very different interpretations of it.

 

 

 

So are they excluded from grace?

 

If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

…

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

 

…

 

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

You bolded the Love each other as I have loved you. And you are right. I should be willing to give my life for YOU like Jesus gave it to each of us. But let's jump right back in the Scripture you quoted.

 

The first I bolded indicates that there will be people who DO NOT obey His teachings (so there must be somethings that are wrong and if Christians do not draw attention to them, how will attention be drawn to them?). (BTW, that should be done in a tactful and loving way.:thumb:)

 

The second I bolded indicates that there is more than just a single command that is listed below. He uses the plural word here, I would guess that if you did a greek/aramic study, it would be the plural greek/aramic word. So, the logical assumption is that ABSOLUTELY what you bolded is a command of Jesus, it is not the ONLY command and Scripture will indicate other commands. Like the taking of communion. Like Matthew 25. Like the Great Commission.

 

To balance your thief Scripture, Jesus also said in Matthew 10 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

 

The rest of Matthew has some continuiation of these strong words. They don't stand in contrast but rather to balance the image of Christ and why he came and sacrificed for us.

You're right, it doesn't make any sense that the Creator of the universe would leave His throne in Heaven, take on human flesh and all the limited attributes and weaknesses of being human, live, work and teach among us and let us nail Him to a cross just so we can live with Him... but that's exactly what John tells us in the first chapter of his book, and I choose to believe him. :thumb:

 

Thanks for the condescension. :thumb:

Thanks for the condescension. :thumb:

Habib... if you actually knew me, you would not draw this conclusion. You actually seem to give your posts a good deal of thought. Although we do disagree at times, I respect you. :thumb:

 

That's one of the problems with a text based message board. Facial expressions, tone of voice and other indicators are not transmitted.

 

I was genuinely expressing humble awe at the sacrifice and love expressed by the Creator of the universe in His attempt to reach out to us. Nothing more.

Unlike Darwinian evolution however, and many world religions, Christianity actually tells a virus, bacteria or cancer cell that it can be a healthy and productive cell within the body, AND actually provides the means to enable the transformation. I know, because it happened in my life, and I have seen it in the lives of many others.

 

 

I don't know what to make of this one FBreak.

 

If you are saying what I think you are saying I might be prone to getting ticked.

 

If you are sharing that sometimes a virus or disease is healed I'm okay with that.

 

It just looks almost like you are saying that there is a formula for healing and if you just follow it, God brings it. Like a gumball machine.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, I just want to understand what you mean by this?

I don't see this saying REMOVE ALL PLANKS but that specific plank. So, if I have sexual impure actions in my life, I shouldn't be calling out others about that. But if I have removed those from my life, THEN Jesus indicates that a person is qualified to help remove the speck from their brother's eye.

 

He does not indicate that you can NEVER do that. Only after you have dealt with THAT sin in your life.

 

 

That is some serious interpretation and theological exegesics (sp).

 

From my reading he is not talking about a specific sin, but sin in general. Whenever you become pure and righteous then you can begin discerning the sin in others - until then, leave the conviction of sin to the one who is pure and righteous.

 

Who said when He encountered sin "Neither do I condem you . . . and go and sin no more" He did not add or else I will then condemn you

I don't know what to make of this one FBreak.

 

If you are saying what I think you are saying I might be prone to getting ticked.

 

If you are sharing that sometimes a virus or disease is healed I'm okay with that.

 

It just looks almost like you are saying that there is a formula for healing and if you just follow it, God brings it. Like a gumball machine.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, I just want to understand what you mean by this?

Dang... this is getting to be work... :irked:

 

Are you guys just looking for reasons to be offended? :lol:

 

Let me state upfront, I desperately desire to be a "humble" Christian. I honestly believe the Bible is God's attempt to communicate His heart and intentions to us. It is above all else a record of an incredible cosmic love story between a Bridegroom and His wayward bride.

 

As much as some want to discredit the Bible as nothing more than myths, legends, and good rules of thumb with few absolutes scattered about, I sincerely believe that God made it so simple a child could understand it. He did this because He loves us, and sincerely desires that none of us miss what He has in store for us. Some want to make it more complex than nuclear physics, rocket science and string theory combined.

 

The two key sentences in my entire post you question reads as follows:

 

“Unlike Darwinian evolution however, and many world religions, Christianity actually tells a virus, bacteria or cancer cell that it can be a healthy and productive cell within the body, AND actually provides the means to enable the transformation. I know, because it happened in my life, and I have seen it in the lives of many others.”

 

I am describing here the fallen, sinful nature of all mankind. Before we repent and accept Jesus Christ, we are little more than (harmful) bacteria, viruses or cancers within the body of Christ. Unless those detrimental entities change, they must be ultimately be eliminated. Various religions have offered ways of becoming better people, and while these may contain some good ideas, they don’t do anything to get us out of the pit of sin. Only Jesus, by lowering Himself into our world and becoming one of us is able to actively lift us out.

 

The telling sentence however is, “I know, because it happened in my life, and I have seen it in the lives of many others.” I’m speaking here of the transformation of the fallen to the redeemed.

 

I hope that clears it up.

Habib... if you actually knew me, you would not draw this conclusion. You actually seem to give your posts a good deal of thought. Although we do disagree at times, I respect you. :thumb:

 

That's one of the problems with a text based message board. Facial expressions, tone of voice and other indicators are not transmitted.

 

I was genuinely expressing humble awe at the sacrifice and love expressed by the Creator of the universe in His attempt to reach out to us. Nothing more.

 

I apologize. I must admit I read it in haste and I now see what you intended.

I didn't have to "choose". Heterosexuality is the norm. You make it sound like there's an A and B and you have to pull the cord once you reach a certain age. I don't think of it that way at all. I feel like there is a "choice" made to stray from the norm. And you can argue all you like that homosexuality is not abnormal. The #'s don't bear that out.

You didn't have to chose and that is exactly my point. I don't see it as a choice so I don't see how it could me morally wrong.

Why isn't it a choice? They choose to participate in sexual relations with the same sex. That is a choice.

So if you wanted to, you could chose to be homosexual and you would enjoy it and truly feel that way in your orientation? That's not how it works. I didn't chose to be heterosexual, that's just the way I am.

So if you wanted to, you could chose to be homosexual and you would enjoy it and truly feel that way in your orientation? That's not how it works. I didn't chose to be heterosexual, that's just the way I am.

 

You didn't choose to be heterosexual because that is how God created you. It is the norm---anything outside this norm is simply a choice, period. And before you go there . . . God did not create some to be homosexual and others heterosexual . . . he cannot go against Himself.

You bolded the Love each other as I have loved you. And you are right. I should be willing to give my life for YOU like Jesus gave it to each of us. But let's jump right back in the Scripture you quoted.

 

The first I bolded indicates that there will be people who DO NOT obey His teachings (so there must be somethings that are wrong and if Christians do not draw attention to them, how will attention be drawn to them?). (BTW, that should be done in a tactful and loving way.:thumb:)

 

The second I bolded indicates that there is more than just a single command that is listed below. He uses the plural word here, I would guess that if you did a greek/aramic study, it would be the plural greek/aramic word. So, the logical assumption is that ABSOLUTELY what you bolded is a command of Jesus, it is not the ONLY command and Scripture will indicate other commands. Like the taking of communion. Like Matthew 25. Like the Great Commission.

 

To balance your thief Scripture, Jesus also said in Matthew 10 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

 

The rest of Matthew has some continuiation of these strong words. They don't stand in contrast but rather to balance the image of Christ and why he came and sacrificed for us.

 

Surely that is hyperbole. If it is taken literally then it would be true of every family and we know that it is not. We also know that it was not Jesus' intentions to set anyone against another for He also said to love your enemy and bless those who persecute you.

Guys, I’m gonna let you in on a little Fastbreak dirty laundry…

 

I have a predisposition... a natural tendency to be greedy, selfish, short tempered, prideful, rude, jealous, envious, you name it. On my own, I wouldn’t be very pretty on the inside or out.

 

If it were possible/acceptable for me to have sexual interaction as often as the urge strikes, and if every encounter resulted in a viable pregnancy, I could have easily fathered a third world nation or two by now.

 

I don’t know how much of this is genetic, spiritual or otherwise. What I do know is that if I simply gave in to what feels good, what feels right, what seems natural, I’d be as lost as anyone could possibly become... if I were even alive.

 

I ‘d like to think that those closest to me would tell you I’m nothing like those ugly things described above. I would hope they could honestly tell you I am loving, joyful, patient, peaceful, kind, good, faithful and generous (or at least a few of them, every now and then.) If they can, it’s not because that is my nature, or I'm such an awesome dude. It is entirely due to God working in me.

 

Apart from God, we’re all hosed.