I find it entirely illogical that you construe my comments to their most extreme position to devalue my point. I have never advocated that the Old Testament be “thrown out.” I asked if anyone could find where the Bible defines immorality, and I continue to ask this.

Habib, once again I must assert that I am not deliberately attempting to insult you or to devalue your point.

 

I will admit that your posts puzzle me. Especially comments like, "As far as the Old Testament, I believe it is filled with great stories and examples. But its commands and laws are no longer relevant."

 

If I took your comment too far in the extreme, I apologize. Since you are open to understanding where and what the Old Testament has to say about sexual immorality, I present the following. It is but one source where such things are discussed, but represents a fairly comprehensive listing of sexually immoral acts:

 

Leviticus 20:10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 11 "'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 12 "'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. 13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 "'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. 15 "'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. 16 "'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 17 "'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible. 18 "'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. 19 "'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible. 20 "'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless. 21 "'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

There are at least 26 mentions of "sexual immorality" or "the sexually immoral" in the Bible. It is interesting note that one occurs in the Old Testament and 25 are in the New Testament. So if the Old Testament is as some suggest, only a story book with examples, but the New Law came after Jesus, it appears there is an even greater emphasis upon not being immoral sexually under the New Law.

 

Nu 25:1 - While Israel was staying in Word Filter ViolationWord Filter ViolationWord Filter ViolationWord Filter Violationtim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women,

Mt 15:19 - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Mr 7:21 - For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

Ac 15:20 - Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Ac 15:29 - You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Ac 21:25 - As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Ro 13:13 - Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

1Co 5:1 - It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.

1Co 6:13 - "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

1Co 6:18 - Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

1Co 10:8 - We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did--and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

Ga 5:19 - The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

Eph 5:3 - But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

Col 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

1Th 4:3 - It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;

Jude 1:7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Re 2:14 - Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

Re 2:20 - Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Re 9:21 - Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

1Co 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Heb 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Heb 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Re 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Re 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Our culture is lying to us.

 

We are being brainwashed to believe that any and all sexual relations are harmless and good. "If you're not hurting anyone, hey, go for it."

 

This may be possible in a godless Darwinian evolution universe where we need to go for the gusto with all we've got before we fade into oblivion.

 

If on the other hand, God exists and the Bible actually is His communication with us, we need to see through the lies and adjust our behavior to reflect this understanding before we find ourselves standing face to face with the One who made us, having to give an account for our actions.

 

I say this because I believe that Jesus is real, His Word is true, and He meant what He said. I say this not as a Pharisee who thinks he has all the answers and an inside track, but as one who is just as stained as anyone else apart from Christ.

Our culture is lying to us.

 

We are being brainwashed to believe that any and all sexual relations are harmless and good. "If you're not hurting anyone, hey, go for it."

 

.

 

One of my favorite Scriptures.

 

Everything is permissable but not all is beneficial.

Fastbreak, your last three posts are some of the best researched and thought out that I've ever read on BGPs used to make a point.

 

And Habib, even though we disagree alot I commend you for your research also, and you will to post on a very hard subject.

Here’s the bottom line as far as I’m concerned.

 

I’m not on here to point my finger at anyone and shout “Unclean!” I’m as unclean as anyone I know. I promise I do not suffer from some Pharisaical superiority complex in which I smugly congratulate myself for how much better I am than some other lowly sinner. I am not under the delusion that my sins are somehow less offensive to God than some else’s sins. In fact, the closer I draw to God, the more I realize that the “little” sins are just as ugly and offensive as the “big” sins. If anything, the “little” ones are more dangerous because they are easier to overlook. The problem for us is, sin is sin to God. There are no big or little sins. Simply put, without Jesus Christ I’m toast, and I know it.

 

I am in no way “judging” any individual based upon their individual merits and failures. I don’t need anyone doing that to me. I certainly have no room to do that to others. That is God’s job.

 

I admit that I need mercy… lots of it. I need grace. I need forgiveness. I am told that before I can have it, I must first extend it to others. I do, as often as I’m aware of it… (…which is pretty much a daily endeavor.)

 

I can’t stand smoke and mirrors. I don’t like playing games with things that matter. Give it to me straight. I can handle the truth, and vastly prefer it to a sweet candy coating hiding a poisonous core. I detest people telling me what they think I can handle, or what they think I want to hear, instead of the whole truth.

 

We are faced with two fundamental world views with many variations and degrees of doctrine/opinion. For the sake of keeping this under 300 pages, I’m going to keep it simple.

1) God exists, and as such is responsible for creating all that is.

2) God does not exist, and we are nothing more than a miniscule cosmic accident… an aberration.

 

If God does not exist, none of this… NONE OF THIS truly matters. We will not-cannot-evolve enough to master the universe and time... certainly not in our lifetimes. We are here for a time and gone forever. A mere blip on the radar of eternal emptiness. Nothing we do truly matters, good or evil, moral or unethical, it is all meaningless.

 

If God does exist, and He did in fact create us, it makes sense to me that He would provide us some clues as to how we would best function. An “owner’s manual” if you will. I realize that many have claimed to have an inside track on this communication, but for me, the Bible is head and shoulders above its nearest rival in terms of accuracy and reliability. If God did indeed inspire the words, teaching and laws contained in the Bible, it would make sense that we heed them.

 

The Bible is very clear about the problem “SIN” and the solution, “Jesus.” The Bible is very clear about the fact that apart from Jesus we are all lost-no matter how good we may try to be, or how hard we may work at doing good-and in fact, are destined for a very unpleasant future. The Bible is very clear about how we may avoid the punishment we deserve, and how to share in the reward we cannot possibly earn. We can argue about many things, but Jesus’ own words make it absolutely crystal clear. It doesn’t take a PhD in Theology to comprehend His direct message.

 

As a loving father, I will not give my son a 1200cc Harley just because he wants one, especially when I know he’s only capable of handling a Big Wheel. I will not allow him to feed solely on candy, sugar and potato chips when I know he needs to eat some vegetables. I will not allow him to continue in disobedience, rebellion and harmful behavior when I know there is nothing but misery as a reward. I will correct and discipline him, even if it makes him angry at me for a time. I believe that some day, when he understands what I understand, he will see my actions as deeply loving, and will in turn love me even more for doing what was best for him, even when he would have chosen something else at the time.

 

I feel the same way about this issue and many others. Yes, so-called Christians have totally botched communications with homosexuals. Yes, many so-called Christians are guilty of not separating the sinner from the sin and judging both as one. Yes, many so-called Christians have spread hatred, bitterness and anger, rather than love, compassion and forgiveness. That does not dismiss the clear teaching of the Bible that homosexuality is sexually immoral and “without repentance and forgiveness through Jesus Christ” will be judged as harshly as every other unforgiven and unrepented sin.

 

It may shock fellow Christians to hear me say this, but homosexuality is no bigger or worse than telling “harmless” little white lies, gossip or gluttony. We all have had a log in our eye, and need to do everything we can to remove it daily.

 

That being said, from a Biblical perspective, in both Old and New Testaments, homosexuality is clearly defined as a sin. (No bigger or worse than any other sin IMO, but a sin nonetheless.) To pursue or encourage a lifestyle built upon sin in unconscionable IMO. For me to know what I know and not say so would be far worse… far less loving… than for me to buy my five year old son a full size Harley Soft Tail with saddlebags full of sugar and soda pop.

Another good post man...the only thing I'll add is the sin of Homosexuality God destroyed the city because of sin and so far he hasn't done that for other sins. I'd say he was pretty upset and even let a man try to talk him out of it, but the man couldn't do it.

Here’s the bottom line as far as I’m concerned.

 

I’m not on here to point my finger at anyone and shout “Unclean!” I’m as unclean as anyone I know. I promise I do not suffer from some Pharisaical superiority complex in which I smugly congratulate myself for how much better I am than some other lowly sinner. I am not under the delusion that my sins are somehow less offensive to God than some else’s sins. In fact, the closer I draw to God, the more I realize that the “little” sins are just as ugly and offensive as the “big” sins. If anything, the “little” ones are more dangerous because they are easier to overlook. The problem for us is, sin is sin to God. There are no big or little sins. Simply put, without Jesus Christ I’m toast, and I know it.

 

I am in no way “judging” any individual based upon their individual merits and failures. I don’t need anyone doing that to me. I certainly have no room to do that to others. That is God’s job.

 

I admit that I need mercy… lots of it. I need grace. I need forgiveness. I am told that before I can have it, I must first extend it to others. I do, as often as I’m aware of it… (…which is pretty much a daily endeavor.)

 

I can’t stand smoke and mirrors. I don’t like playing games with things that matter. Give it to me straight. I can handle the truth, and vastly prefer it to a sweet candy coating hiding a poisonous core. I detest people telling me what they think I can handle, or what they think I want to hear, instead of the whole truth.

 

We are faced with two fundamental world views with many variations and degrees of doctrine/opinion. For the sake of keeping this under 300 pages, I’m going to keep it simple.

1) God exists, and as such is responsible for creating all that is.

2) God does not exist, and we are nothing more than a miniscule cosmic accident… an aberration.

 

If God does not exist, none of this… NONE OF THIS truly matters. We will not-cannot-evolve enough to master the universe and time... certainly not in our lifetimes. We are here for a time and gone forever. A mere blip on the radar of eternal emptiness. Nothing we do truly matters, good or evil, moral or unethical, it is all meaningless.

 

If God does exist, and He did in fact create us, it makes sense to me that He would provide us some clues as to how we would best function. An “owner’s manual” if you will. I realize that many have claimed to have an inside track on this communication, but for me, the Bible is head and shoulders above its nearest rival in terms of accuracy and reliability. If God did indeed inspire the words, teaching and laws contained in the Bible, it would make sense that we heed them.

 

The Bible is very clear about the problem “SIN” and the solution, “Jesus.” The Bible is very clear about the fact that apart from Jesus we are all lost-no matter how good we may try to be, or how hard we may work at doing good-and in fact, are destined for a very unpleasant future. The Bible is very clear about how we may avoid the punishment we deserve, and how to share in the reward we cannot possibly earn. We can argue about many things, but Jesus’ own words make it absolutely crystal clear. It doesn’t take a PhD in Theology to comprehend His direct message.

 

As a loving father, I will not give my son a 1200cc Harley just because he wants one, especially when I know he’s only capable of handling a Big Wheel. I will not allow him to feed solely on candy, sugar and potato chips when I know he needs to eat some vegetables. I will not allow him to continue in disobedience, rebellion and harmful behavior when I know there is nothing but misery as a reward. I will correct and discipline him, even if it makes him angry at me for a time. I believe that some day, when he understands what I understand, he will see my actions as deeply loving, and will in turn love me even more for doing what was best for him, even when he would have chosen something else at the time.

 

I feel the same way about this issue and many others. Yes, so-called Christians have totally botched communications with homosexuals. Yes, many so-called Christians are guilty of not separating the sinner from the sin and judging both as one. Yes, many so-called Christians have spread hatred, bitterness and anger, rather than love, compassion and forgiveness. That does not dismiss the clear teaching of the Bible that homosexuality is sexually immoral and “without repentance and forgiveness through Jesus Christ” will be judged as harshly as every other unforgiven and unrepented sin.

 

It may shock fellow Christians to hear me say this, but homosexuality is no bigger or worse than telling “harmless” little white lies, gossip or gluttony. We all have had a log in our eye, and need to do everything we can to remove it daily.

 

That being said, from a Biblical perspective, in both Old and New Testaments, homosexuality is clearly defined as a sin. (No bigger or worse than any other sin IMO, but a sin nonetheless.) To pursue or encourage a lifestyle built upon sin in unconscionable IMO. For me to know what I know and not say so would be far worse… far less loving… than for me to buy my five year old son a full size Harley Soft Tail with saddlebags full of sugar and soda pop.

 

 

A couple of things - Jesus is very clear on how to live our lives - Love God and Love your neighbor (what I haven't figured out is how acts/laws like the one discussed in the last election that would try to limit access to health care for gay partners - shows love to them) Jesus never did tell anyone to be completely clean before he would love them, He loved them first.

 

Also, being the loving father that you are, what could your son possibly do that would make you exile him FOREVER in pure suffering?

Also, being the loving father that you are, what could your son possibly do that would make you exile him FOREVER in pure suffering?

Being the loving father that I am, I cannot imagine having someone who curses me, mocks me, denies me, spits at me and blames me for every evil thing that happens, murders,tortures and steals from my children, rapes my daughters, wants nothing to do with me... and still loving them enough to allow my good and precious son to take their place at the hands of the executioners they deserve... and then they want to accuse me of not loving them enough.

 

Truly amazing.

 

I didn't write the Bible, I simply believe it is true.

 

Why did Jesus give his life, if the laws He died to fulfill were so meaningless we can just ignore them and do whatever we want?

 

I sincerely believe that God loves us enough to let us choose our eternal destiny. He has provided the Way to Him. He must also allow us a way away from him. It's our choice.

Habib, once again I must assert that I am not deliberately attempting to insult you or to devalue your point.

 

I will admit that your posts puzzle me. Especially comments like, "As far as the Old Testament, I believe it is filled with great stories and examples. But its commands and laws are no longer relevant."

 

If I took your comment too far in the extreme, I apologize. Since you are open to understanding where and what the Old Testament has to say about sexual immorality, I present the following. It is but one source where such things are discussed, but represents a fairly comprehensive listing of sexually immoral acts:

 

This is my problem: you have just said that these are a list of sexual immoral acts, but the Bible does not list them as such. I think is important, also, to note the clauses that follow each of these sins.

 

Leviticus 20:10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 11 "'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 12 "'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. 13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 "'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. 15 "'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. 16 "'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 17 "'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible. 18 "'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. 19 "'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible. 20 "'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless. 21 "'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

 

Why are these no longer practiced? How is one part of the law entirely applicable, while the other isn't? I firmly believe that you cannot have one without the other; the law does not "half apply" now - it either does or doesn't.

 

If Jesus came to "amplify" the law, why aren't we enforcing these even more strictly? Why are we not sacrificing animals or following any other ceremonial laws?

 

There are at least 26 mentions of "sexual immorality" or "the sexually immoral" in the Bible. It is interesting note that one occurs in the Old Testament and 25 are in the New Testament. So if the Old Testament is as some suggest, only a story book with examples, but the New Law came after Jesus, it appears there is an even greater emphasis upon not being immoral sexually under the New Law.

 

This is what I am trying to understand: The New Testament mentions immorality a lot but where is it defined? I believe we apply our own definitions to immorality that are colored by our worldly beliefs.

 

This is how it breaks down for me. Jesus came to save us from the archaic laws of the Old Testament. He came to free us from sin, which was the chief focus of the Old Laws. We aren't to tiptoe through our lives trying to avoid sin as we would avoid cracks on pavement. We have been freed from sin and charged to love.

 

I look to what Jesus said, but also to what he didn't say. There is not a defining list of sins in the New Testament. A few are mentioned, but overall they are not explicitly listed. I believe this was purposeful. First, we are not slaves to sin, so why bother explaining each and every one. Second, what sin is to one person may not be to another, therefore it would be ridiculous to list every possible sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

 

I have never said we are still under old laws, nor do I think we are required to fulfill them on our own. I am one of the least legalistic Christians you will ever encounter. :lol:

 

My point is, God took His laws so seriously He had to let His Son die in our place to fulfill them. That does not give us a blank check to now ignore them or ignore Him. Sin is still sin whether we choose to call it sin or not. It still must be dealt with in each of our lives. The only way I believe this is possible is through Jesus Christ. As much as he may long to do so, He is not going to save us against our will.

 

For those of us who know the Truth to remain silent while millions are told that God doesn't care if they sin or not, or that they are going to Heaven without first dealing directly with Jesus Christ goes against everything I believe to be true, and would be one of the least loving things I can think of doing to anyone.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

 

I have never said we are still under old laws, nor do I think we are required to fulfill them on our own. I am one of the least legalistic Christians you will ever encounter. :lol:

 

My point is, God took His laws so seriously He had to let His Son die in our place to fulfill them. That does not give us a blank check to now ignore them or ignore Him. Sin is still sin whether we choose to call it sin or not. It still must be dealt with in each of our lives. The only way I believe this is possible is through Jesus Christ. As much as he may long to do so, He is not going to save us against our will.

 

For those of us who know the Truth to remain silent while millions are told that God doesn't care if they sin or not, or that they are going to Heaven without first dealing directly with Jesus Christ goes against everything I believe to be true, and would be one of the least loving things I can think of doing to anyone.

 

 

What does the second bolded mean exactly?

 

You and I read the same Bible, and I take it very seriously, yet you and I have very different notions of the TRUTH - do you just simply dismiss mine? I don't yours, I spent the better part of my life trying to follow a dogma and doctrine, and have only recently come to focus more on the love of Jesus and the Grace that comes freely to us.

I believe it can be genetic and environmental factors. I believe I've read that many homosexuals share a common gene.

Earlier this year, the journal Personality and Individual Differences published an exhaustive review of the literature entitled ''Born Gay?'' After reviewing the twin studies, it concluded that 50 to 60 percent of sexual orientation might be genetic.

 

Many studies also suggest that sexual orientation may be linked to differences in brain anatomy. Compared with straight men, gay men appear to have a larger suprachiasmatic nucleus, a part of the brain that affects behavior, and some studies show most gay men have a larger isthmus of the corpus callosum -- which may also be true of left-handed people. And that's intriguing because gays are 39 percent more likely to be left-handed than straight people.

 

Got this from the article "Gay at Birth" by Nicholas D. Kristof in the New York Times.

I believe it can be genetic and environmental factors. I believe I've read that many homosexuals share a common gene.

 

Got this from the article "Gay at Birth" by Nicholas D. Kristof in the New York Times.

 

It was hard to find the article that Kristof was citing, so I can't comment on this.

 

Here is my perspective: if it is genetically based, then if one identical twin is gay, then another should be gay as well. (which is not the case, see "The Importance of Twin Studies" by N. E. Whitehead, Ph.D.)

 

So, if it "partially" genetically based, then what else can we blame on partial genetics? Here is an article from Time having to do with a murder gene. Are these people excused?