Poor wording on my part. I guess what I meant is that you can't just allow sin to happen, and pretend it isn't there.

 

Again my question becomes why then is homosexuality singled out more than greed or the accumulation of wealth. That was Jesus focus, that, along with self righteousness.

Again my question becomes why then is homosexuality singled out more than greed or the accumulation of wealth. That was Jesus focus, that, along with self righteousness.

 

Probably because less people are gay than people that are greedy or self-righteous, and no one wants to point out their own flaws, only others. Still doesn't make homosexuality any more right or wrong because it is singled out.

Also because you really don't have many people who will argue that greed or self-righteousness are desirable traits, while this one has a debate to it.

Probably because less people are gay than people that are greedy or self-righteous, and no one wants to point out their own flaws, only others. Still doesn't make homosexuality any more right or wrong because it is singled out.

Also because you really don't have many people who will argue that greed or self-righteousness are desirable traits, while this one has a debate to it.

 

 

What about Gordon Gecko in Wall Street? :thumb:

What about Gordon Gecko in Wall Street? :thumb:

 

That is a good movie and I used to show it, edited, to my senior business classes while we were studying the stock market.

Ace here I'll help you son....Ezekiel 3:18 Son of man, I have made you a "watchman" so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me, "when I say to a WICKED MAN you will surely die, and YOU do not warn him or dissuade him from his evil way in order to save his life, that WICKED man will die for his sins, and I will HOLD YOU accoutable for his blood. But if you warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his sin, he will die, but you will haved saved yourself".

 

This verse is so important that it is repeaded again a few verses down.

 

Ezekiel 18:30 "I will judge you accordingly to his ways declares the Lord...Repent! Turn away from your sin, Rid yourselves of your sin and get a new heart and a new spirit"

 

This is also repeated in Ezekiel 33:7:9.

 

There you go.

 

Matthew 28 is called "The Great Commission". I'll let you look that one up.

Ace here I'll help you son....Ezekiel 3:18 Son of man, I have made you a "watchman" so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me, "when I say to a WICKED MAN you will surely die, and YOU do not warn him or dissuade him from his evil way in order to save his life, that WICKED man will die for his sins, and I will HOLD YOU accoutable for his blood. But if you warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his sin, he will die, but you will haved saved yourself".

 

This verse is so important that it is repeaded again a few verses down.

 

Ezekiel 18:30 "I will judge you accordingly to his ways declares the Lord...Repent! Turn away from your sin, Rid yourselves of your sin and get a new heart and a new spirit"

 

This is also repeated in Ezekiel 33:7:9.

 

There you go.

 

Matthew 28 is called "The Great Commission". I'll let you look that one up.

 

Ezekiel falls under the Old Law. And the Great Commission says nothing about pointing out sin in others.

 

I would also like to ask a question. I keep seeing "immorality" being thrown about in this thread. Where is immorality defined or operationalized in the Bible? I don't believe I have ever read an answer to that. I find it quite hard to rest an argument on right and wrong on such a subjective term.

Ezekiel falls under the Old Law. And the Great Commission says nothing about pointing out sin in others.

 

I would also like to ask a question. I keep seeing "immorality" being thrown about in this thread. Where is immorality defined or operationalized in the Bible? I don't believe I have ever read an answer to that. I find it quite hard to rest an argument on right and wrong on such a subjective term.

 

I agree with Habib - if you are going to use Ez. to point out how we should live, then you have to live under the levitical law as well.

Off topic, but what is the point of the Old Testament according to Habib and acemona?

Off topic, but what is the point of the Old Testament according to Habib and acemona?

 

Sounds like a great thread topic instead of taking that debate up here.

 

What is the purpose of the OT for those who are NT Christians.

Seems like a terrible waste of paper and ink since Gutenburg got the ball rolling 550 years ago.

 

The Old Testament in my Bible takes up about three-quarters of the pages.

 

Apparently, the printing of the Bible as the best selling book in the history of the world, and especially the meaningless inclusion of the Old Testament is responsible, for deforestation and ultimately a contributor in global warming. :eek:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am being a smart aleck here... :lol:

The OT was the "Old Law" for salvation issues when their was no Savior.

 

Jesus came with the "New Law", but warnings are still used from the OT that make sense today.

 

The story of Genesis teaches about Mankind starting. The story of Joseph about forgiveness and how plans come together,

 

I can go on and on, but thats the idea.

The OT was the "Old Law" for salvation issues when their was no Savior.

 

Jesus came with the "New Law", but warnings are still used from the OT that make sense today.

 

The story of Genesis teaches about Mankind starting. The story of Joseph about forgiveness and how plans come together,

 

I can go on and on, but thats the idea.

 

I agree in large part. My contention is that sin’s relation to salvation is fundamentally transformed by Jesus. So a command to stop sinners from sinning or else be responsible for their sin is no longer applicable after the life of Jesus as he commanded an entirely different law.

 

As far as the Old Testament, I believe it is filled with great stories and examples as AL outlined above. But its commands and laws are no longer relevant. I feel the most important part of the Old Testament is the prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus. Yet I find that the Old Testament is most often used to for debates like these, where we go and find some mention of something in agreement with our position and place it upon a pedestal while ignoring the rest of it.

 

Again, I will ask this: I keep seeing "immorality" being thrown about in this thread. Where is immorality defined or operationalized in the Bible? I don't believe I have ever read an answer to that. I find it quite hard to rest an argument on right and wrong on such a subjective term.

Again, I will ask this: I keep seeing "immorality" being thrown about in this thread. Where is immorality defined or operationalized in the Bible? I don't believe I have ever read an answer to that. I find it quite hard to rest an argument on right and wrong on such a subjective term.

Immorality and other terms are hard to define when we toss out three-quarters of the book, and the foundation for what the New Testament is buit upon.

 

I agree in large part. My contention is that sin’s relation to salvation is fundamentally transformed by Jesus. So a command to stop sinners from sinning or else be responsible for their sin is no longer applicable after the life of Jesus as he commanded an entirely different law.

 

As far as the Old Testament, I believe it is filled with great stories and examples as AL outlined above. But its commands and laws are no longer relevant. I feel the most important part of the Old Testament is the prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus. Yet I find that the Old Testament is most often used to for debates like these, where we go and find some mention of something in agreement with our position and place it upon a pedestal while ignoring the rest of it.

There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus discarded the OT after he began His ministry, in fact, He came to amplify and fulfill it.

 

But perhaps I should let Him state it in His own words:

 

Matthew 5:17-32 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

 

It seems to me, that Jesus' standards of what is sin and what is not is much greater than that outlined in the OT. The OT said adultery is a sin, Jesus said that mere lust is a sin. The OT said that murder is a sin, Jesus said that merely being angry with another is a sin.

 

For this reason, I can't agree with modern revisionist views that the OT is passe.

Immorality and other terms are hard to define when we toss out three-quarters of the book, and the foundation for what the New Testament is buit upon.

 

I find it entirely illogical that you construe my comments to their most extreme position to devalue my point. I have never advocated that the Old Testament be “thrown out.” I asked if anyone could find where the Bible defines immorality, and I continue to ask this.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus discarded the OT after he began His ministry, in fact, He came to amplify and fulfill it.

 

But perhaps I should let Him state it in His own words:

 

Matthew 5:17-32

 

It seems to me, that Jesus' standards of what is sin and what is not is much greater than that outlined in the OT. The OT said adultery is a sin, Jesus said that mere lust is a sin. The OT said that murder is a sin, Jesus said that merely being angry with another is a sin.

 

For this reason, I can't agree with modern revisionist views that the OT is passe.

 

Yes, as I mentioned before, he came to fulfill the Old Laws. He did not come to further impose them on the world. I have no reason to believe that Jesus’ statements in this passage demand, as you interpret them, that we fully retain and practice the decrees of Old Testament Law. If that is true, then there is absolutely no reason for him to have even come.

 

I believe Paul’s discussion in Galations 3 is relevant here.

 

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

 

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

 

Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

 

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Jesus had to come to redeem us from the fact that none of us could possibly fulfill the full requirements of the law on our own. This was a key point in why Jesus was so tough on the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Although perhaps a bit more obedient to the Laws than the average Joes, they were by no means more sanctified. The fact that they held their position and assumed spiritual superiority over the average citizens of the day was the filthy hypocrisy Jesus detested. They placed greater emphasis on form and appearances over genuine substance. They used the Law to rule harshly, when He knew they were just as lost as anyone else apart from Him.

 

Jesus detested pride and hypocrisy, not the Law. If anything, the fact that Jesus had to die in order to fulfill the Law amplifies just how seriously God takes His own Laws and Words. If Jesus took it so seriously, He was willing to lay down His life for it, how can we disregard it, or suggest it no longer has the same merit it had when it was first delivered to us?

 

We are redeemed in Christ alone, not in how perfectly we observe the Law. This is why Jesus had to come, and why His Word is still valid.