That’s really what I was driving at.

 

 

 

I personally feel it falls under the Old Laws. I simply don’t find it applicable to the New Law.

 

 

 

With the important distinction being Jesus.

 

 

 

Of course. I also happen to believe this "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

 

 

 

 

Paul is also mortal. Jesus had a different stance "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

I don’t have any sort of Biblical education outside of my own readings, so I can’t speak to the exact translation or the semantics of the original text, but it seems entirely possible Paul is speaking to those Christians in Corinth who look to him for guidance. His “judgment” may very well be his advice on the matter as their mortal guide.

 

 

 

I’ve been saying that for hours.

I think that Paul preaches against "sexual immorality". Remember that Paul was a scholar of the old testament scrolls (referring to himself as the chief of Pharisees), so I don't think if you're referring to Paul's teaching that you can separate Mosaic Law and the New Testament teachings. Morality, in Paul's teaching for instance, stems from his acute knowledge of the Mosaic law. I feel quite certain homosexuality is encapsulated within "sexual immorality".

I personally feel it falls under the Old Laws. I simply don’t find it applicable to the New Law.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

 

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

You opened with the statement that “100% homosexuality would not be beneficial to society.” Apart from your questionable contentions for reducing our population and having more disposable income, you cannot logically contend that 100% monogamous heterosexuality is anything but beneficial to society. Heterosexuality is how society has been built for millennia. It works.

 

If 100% of one thing is good and 100% of another thing is not good, how can you logically contend it is better to dilute 100% good with any percentage of not good?

 

And yet, you call me illogical…

And I'll call you illogical again.

 

First, rhetorically you've made an interesting point: Heterosexuality is how society has been built for millennia. The interesting thing is that you left out "100% heterosexuality" and I think we both know why.

 

Second, the argument that I've bolded just is not logical. For example:

 

A basketball team made up entirely of extremely athletic, moderately skilled individuals is good.

 

A basketball team made up entirely of unathletic but very skilled point guards is not good.

 

By your logic, a team made up of 4 off-the-charts athletes and a highly skilled point guard is not preferable to 5 off-the-charts athletes.

 

 

Or:

 

 

100% vegetables is good for you.

 

100% red meat is bad for you.

 

Can a mixture of salad and steak not be superior?

And I'll call you illogical again.

 

First, rhetorically you've made an interesting point: Heterosexuality is how society has been built for millennia. The interesting thing is that you left out "100% heterosexuality" and I think we both know why.

I may choose to respond to your post, but you've lost me on this one.

 

I've included 100% heterosexuality in at least two different posts. I'm not following you here, much less knowing "Why?"

 

Since you seem to know, perhaps you can clue me in.

I don't see this saying REMOVE ALL PLANKS but that specific plank. So, if I have sexual impure actions in my life, I shouldn't be calling out others about that. But if I have removed those from my life, THEN Jesus indicates that a person is qualified to help remove the speck from their brother's eye.

 

He does not indicate that you can NEVER do that. Only after you have dealt with THAT sin in your life.

 

I agree in part. On the other hand I feel he means that no one is free of sin, so don't go around criticizing others' lives while you are not better than they.

 

I think that Paul preaches against "sexual immorality". Remember that Paul was a scholar of the old testament scrolls (referring to himself as the chief of Pharisees), so I don't think if you're referring to Paul's teaching that you can separate Mosaic Law and the New Testament teachings. Morality, in Paul's teaching for instance, stems from his acute knowledge of the Mosaic law. I feel quite certain homosexuality is encapsulated within "sexual immorality".

 

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. But if you are saying there isn't a large difference between the Old Testament law and the New Testament law then we have very different interpretations of it.

 

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

 

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

So are they excluded from grace?

 

If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

…

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

 

…

 

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I don't see how many would choose to be "homosexual". Especially with the stigma's in society that cause them many problems. marriage rights, pda in public, harassment, etc.

 

I look at it as being very similar to learning disabilities. I don't think anyone would choose to have a learning disability. Life is filled with problems, so I dont think people will knowing and willingly choose to make things more difficult, just to be "gay".

I don't see how many would choose to be "homosexual". Especially with the stigma's in society that cause them many problems. marriage rights, pda in public, harassment, etc.

 

I look at it as being very similar to learning disabilities. I don't think anyone would choose to have a learning disability. Life is filled with problems, so I dont think people will knowing and willingly choose to make things more difficult, just to be "gay".

 

They choose it because we are depraved human beings with a selfish desire to please ourselves and our fleshly desires. They ignore the stigma and do what their flesh says it wants.

What evidence do you have to support your claim?

 

The bible ---- God's word for one thing----and that is the ultimate authority. Of course I realize that you give that no credence to this--- a bit surprising since you plan to go into the ministry according to a prior post--- so we will just have to give each other room and agree to disagree. Homosexuality is a sin, always has been, always will be. However, just like all sin, it is forgiveable and we have a blessed Savior who has paid the price. Thank God for that---we are all sinners in need of a Savior.

I agree in part. On the other hand I feel he means that no one is free of sin, so don't go around criticizing others' lives while you are not better than they.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. But if you are saying there isn't a large difference between the Old Testament law and the New Testament law then we have very different interpretations of it.

 

 

 

So are they excluded from grace?

 

If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

…

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

 

…

 

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I am not disputing that the law of the OT and the new law are different. However, perhaps I'm not following your thinking. Are you saying that homosexuality is not sexually immoral as Paul teaches and warns against? If so, is it simply because it's part of the "old law"?

So are they excluded from grace?

Grace is a free gift of God, but it is far from cheap. It was bought and paid for at the highest possible price.

 

Grace is accessible to all, but to remain in it, one must acknowledge their sinful behavior is wrong and at least make some kind of an attempt to turn from it. Your post sounds as if God is going to pour out His grace on everyone, regardless of the condition of their hearts and their actions... whether they want it or not.

 

Using your standard of the New Testament alone there are at least 20 condemnations of engaging in or continuing in sexual immorality… of which adultery, fornication, homosexuality and bestiality are included. Being drunk with alcohol and gluttony are also mentioned several times.

 

Whether genetics are involved or not, we face a much greater struggle than our genetic predispositions, and that is our spiritual predisposition to sin.

 

We cannot overcome it on our own apart from God’s grace. BUT, we must be willing to subject ourselves to God’s conditions to remain under His grace.

 

You seem too smart to me to let yourself be misled.

 

2 Corinthians 12:20-21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

I may choose to respond to your post, but you've lost me on this one.

 

I've included 100% heterosexuality in at least two different posts. I'm not following you here, much less knowing "Why?"

 

Since you seem to know, perhaps you can clue me in.

Exactly, because you've used it repeatedly, your point NOT using '100%' is conspicuous.

 

In the phrase, "Heterosexuality is how society has been built for millennia" you don't put '100%' in front of 'heterosexuality.' I assumed it was because you realize that placing 100% in front would make that statement untrue.

Exactly, because you've used it repeatedly, your point NOT using '100%' is conspicuous.

 

In the phrase, "Heterosexuality is how society has been built for millennia" you don't put '100%' in front of 'heterosexuality.' I assumed it was because you realize that placing 100% in front would make that statement untrue.

Explain to me how (aside from the virgin birth of Jesus Christ and laboratory tampering by modern medical science) any child in the history of the world has been conceived and born via natural means, apart from a heterosexual union between a human male and a human female and I'll conceed your point. Otherwise you're trying to make Mt. Everest out of a grain of sand here.

 

I do not deny that homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, "extreme" animal lovers, pedophiles, necrophiliacs, and other sexual deviants have existed for thousands of years, and as such have been a part of society. I liken this to the fact that you currently have any number of viruses, bacteria and other unpleasant and truly counterproductive entities floating around what I sincerely hope is your otherwise healthy body.

 

It must also be acknowledged that the virus, bacteria, or other corrupt cell benefits far more from the healthy cells, than the healthy cells gain from the "bugs".

 

Unlike Darwinian evolution however, and many world religions, Christianity actually tells a virus, bacteria or cancer cell that it can be a healthy and productive cell within the body, AND actually provides the means to enable the transformation. I know, because it happened in my life, and I have seen it in the lives of many others.

Explain to me how (aside from the virgin birth of Jesus Christ and laboratory tampering by modern medical science) any child in the history of the world has been conceived and born via natural means, apart from a heterosexual union between a human male and a human female and I'll conceed your point. Otherwise you're trying to make Mt. Everest out of a grain of sand here.

 

I do not deny that homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, "extreme" animal lovers, pedophiles, necrophiliacs, and other sexual deviants have existed for thousands of years, and as such have been a part of society. I liken this to the fact that you currently have any number of viruses, bacteria and other unpleasant and truly counterproductive entities floating around what I sincerely hope is your otherwise healthy body.

 

Unlike Darwinian evolution however, and many world religions, Christianity actually tells a virus, bacteria or cancer cell that it can be a healthy and productive cell within the body, AND actually provides the means to enable the transformation. I know, because it happened in my life, and I have seen it in the lives of many others.

Actually, science tells us that we have many beneficial bacteria in our bodies.:thumb:

 

Just as we have many homosexual members of society who have done nothing but positive things, and detracted nothing other than failing to procreate (as do many Catholic priests, I might add.)

 

Just because you have preconcieved notions about the 'facts' of bacteria, doesn't make you right. This can be generalized to other areas, perhaps...

I am not disputing that the law of the OT and the new law are different. However, perhaps I'm not following your thinking. Are you saying that homosexuality is not sexually immoral as Paul teaches and warns against? If so, is it simply because it's part of the "old law"?

 

I apologize; I believe I may have misinterpreted your post. I was speaking to the way sin is handled in under the different laws.

 

Grace is a free gift of God, but it is far from cheap. It was bought and paid for at the highest possible price.

 

Free gift that isn't cheap? That doesn't make any sense.

 

Grace is accessible to all, but to remain in it, one must acknowledge their sinful behavior is wrong and at least make some kind of an attempt to turn from it. Your post sounds as if God is going to pour out His grace on everyone, regardless of the condition of their hearts and their actions... whether they want it or not.

 

Using your standard of the New Testament alone there are at least 20 condemnations of engaging in or continuing in sexual immorality… of which adultery, fornication, homosexuality and bestiality are included. Being drunk with alcohol and gluttony are also mentioned several times.

 

Whether genetics are involved or not, we face a much greater struggle than our genetic predispositions, and that is our spiritual predisposition to sin.

 

We cannot overcome it on our own apart from God’s grace. BUT, we must be willing to subject ourselves to God’s conditions to remain under His grace.

 

You seem too smart to me to let yourself be misled.

 

2 Corinthians 12:20-21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

 

Of course. We must accept and have faith in Jesus, that’s the stipulation. But why aren’t all things sinful explicitly laid out in the New Testament? Unlike the Old Testament, why are we told to not be slaves to sin, but to righteousness, and charged with loving others? I believe that if Jesus wanted us be consumed with not sinning and stopping others from doing it he would have explicitly stated what exactly sins are. To the topic of homosexuality, I personally feel that if I were to partake in that act, as a heterosexual, it would take a great deal of sexual depravation and thus be sinful. It would go against my moral philosophy, i.e. a knowing wrong. As it keeps being referenced with Paul’s allusion to Sodom, they “were given to” the basest sexual depravations, which included homosexual acts. However, the idea of a homosexual person is not addressed. Is it depraved for someone born gay to do as they feel, just as we do?

 

I forgot why I always stay out of religious threads; I think I'll stick with politics. :lol:

Actually, science tells us that we have many beneficial bacteria in our bodies.:thumb:

You're not talking to a first grader here... :lol:

 

I assumed you knew what I was talking about, and would permit me to be at least somewhat diplomatic... but I guessed wrong.

 

There's no doubt in my mind, that individuals living a homosexual lifestyle have made contributions in many disciplines. I know many of them. That has never been my point.

 

I personally know some former and possibly current adulterers, alcoholics, and idolaters that are some of the nicest, most productive members of our society. BUT it is not the adultery or alcoholism or idolatry or homosexuality that gives their attributes strength.

 

We're aguing in circles here.

 

There is hope for homosexuals, just as there is for all of us regardless of the sins in our lives. We merely need to be willing to turn from our selfish desires, and we clearly (in my mind) need to turn to Jesus Christ.