You didn't choose to be heterosexual because that is how God created you. It is the norm---anything outside this norm is simply a choice, period. And before you go there . . . God did not create some to be homosexual and others heterosexual . . . he cannot go against Himself.

 

So autism is a choice, b/c it is outside of the norm, as are blue eyes and blond hair. A guess a cleft pallet is a choice b/c it is outside of the norm. WOW

 

By the way, how do you know God is a he?

Someone, I couldn't find the post to quote, mentioned that God made it pretty simple - this is simply just not true - Paul says that we CANNOT know the full truth b/c we only see through a glass dimly so to say that the Bible says it, I believe, and that settles it, goes squarley against Paul's teachings

Someone, I couldn't find the post to quote, mentioned that God made it pretty simple - this is simply just not true - Paul says that we CANNOT know the full truth b/c we only see through a glass dimly so to say that the Bible says it, I believe, and that settles it, goes squarley against Paul's teachings

 

Interesting point, but does it justify allowing every sort of sin out there because we don't know the FULL truth? I know that is what you are trying to say (I hope) but to bring up the point that "we don't know everything" seems quite irrelevant to this thread.

Someone, I couldn't find the post to quote, mentioned that God made it pretty simple - this is simply just not true - Paul says that we CANNOT know the full truth b/c we only see through a glass dimly so to say that the Bible says it, I believe, and that settles it, goes squarley against Paul's teachings

That someone would be me.

 

While I agree that God is far more complex than we can begin to comprehend, I disagree that He has clouded the most important aspects of how we are to approach Him.

 

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me" and He gave us ample instruction about how we are to come to the Father through Him.

 

There is no excuse but our own pride and stubbornness

 

So autism is a choice, b/c it is outside of the norm, as are blue eyes and blond hair. A guess a cleft pallet is a choice b/c it is outside of the norm. WOW

Are you suggesting that autism and cleft palettes are desireable evolutionary developments, or would you conceed that they are genetic mutations?

 

Do you think the person with a cleft palette-given the choice-would prefer to remain disfigured or be made "normal"?

 

How about the autistic child, or the MS victim, or the kid with Spina Bifida, or the person afflicted by any other genetic hiccup?

 

Given a choice, virtually all would prefer to be "normal" rather than "special".

 

By the way, how do you know God is a he?

Is this really an issue for you, or are you just wanting to stir the pot?

God made man in his image. He gave Adam a helper Eve, go and multiply the earth. Immoral sex is wrong, its un-natural. Its a sin, you must repent or Jesus will judge you. The path to heaven has a narrow gate, and only a few will enter. We can't pick and choose scripture.

And I'll call you illogical again.

 

First, rhetorically you've made an interesting point: Heterosexuality is how society has been built for millennia. The interesting thing is that you left out "100% heterosexuality" and I think we both know why.

 

Second, the argument that I've bolded just is not logical. For example:

 

A basketball team made up entirely of extremely athletic, moderately skilled individuals is good.

 

A basketball team made up entirely of unathletic but very skilled point guards is not good.

 

By your logic, a team made up of 4 off-the-charts athletes and a highly skilled point guard is not preferable to 5 off-the-charts athletes.

 

 

Or:

 

 

100% vegetables is good for you.

 

100% red meat is bad for you.

 

Can a mixture of salad and steak not be superior?

 

I believe they call it the Atkins diet, and it's very popular in Hollywood if I'm not mistaken.

That someone would be me.

 

While I agree that God is far more complex than we can begin to comprehend, I disagree that He has clouded the most important aspects of how we are to approach Him.

 

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me" and He gave us ample instruction about how we are to come to the Father through Him.

 

There is no excuse but our own pride and stubbornness

 

Are you suggesting that autism and cleft palettes are desireable evolutionary developments, or would you conceed that they are genetic mutations?

 

Do you think the person with a cleft palette-given the choice-would prefer to remain disfigured or be made "normal"?

 

How about the autistic child, or the MS victim, or the kid with Spina Bifida, or the person afflicted by any other genetic hiccup?

 

Given a choice, virtually all would prefer to be "normal" rather than "special".

 

Is this really an issue for you, or are you just wanting to stir the pot?

 

What I am suggesting is that because something is outside the norm does not mean that it is a choice - ergo the argument you make, or that was made by someone, that b/c homosexuality is outside the norm makes it a choice, is wrong.

 

And you are correct God has made it perfectly clear - LOVE - unconditionally, all the time, everyone. Treat others better than yourself -

 

It would seem to me that if we insist on raling (sp) against anything, we should rale against the things Jesus raled about. Namely the poor and the oppressed. The people Jesus used the most harsh words toward were the Self-Righteous religious elite of the community who believed they had all the rules covered and were convinced that they were the ones to tell everyone how to live. Jesus called them a brood of vipers. He was also pretty clear about the rich and how tough it would be for them to get to heaven - do we spend our days preaching to the rich that they are in danger of hell fire and ...? The people he threw out of the temple were money changers (bankers, stock brokers, small business owners). He went to eat with a TAX collector, one of his closest friends may have been a lady of the night, his parents were illegal immigrants/political refugees in Egypt, the first person he commissioned as a missionary was a woman, and a Samaritan woman at that (yet Paul and Timothy tell us that women cannot teach men?). Jesus preached to the people in hell - he turned water into wine at a Party

 

Jesus - the one who says "to follow His commandments" never once mentions homosexuality.

What I am suggesting is that because something is outside the norm does not mean that it is a choice - ergo the argument you make, or that was made by someone, that b/c homosexuality is outside the norm makes it a choice, is wrong.

 

And you are correct God has made it perfectly clear - LOVE - unconditionally, all the time, everyone. Treat others better than yourself -

 

It would seem to me that if we insist on raling (sp) against anything, we should rale against the things Jesus raled about. Namely the poor and the oppressed. The people Jesus used the most harsh words toward were the Self-Righteous religious elite of the community who believed they had all the rules covered and were convinced that they were the ones to tell everyone how to live. Jesus called them a brood of vipers. He was also pretty clear about the rich and how tough it would be for them to get to heaven - do we spend our days preaching to the rich that they are in danger of hell fire and Word Filter ViolationWord Filter ViolationWord Filter ViolationWord Filter Violationation? The people he threw out of the temple were money changers (bankers, stock brokers, small business owners). He went to eat with a TAX collector, one of his closest friends may have been a lady of the night, his parents were illegal immigrants/political refugees in Egypt, the first person he commissioned as a missionary was a woman, and a Samaritan woman at that (yet Paul and Timothy tell us that women cannot teach men?). Jesus preached to the people in hell - he turned water into wine at a Party

 

Jesus - the one who says "to follow His commandments" never once mentions homosexuality.

 

The people he appointed sure talked an awful lot about it. Cmon guys, sometimes I can't and don't want to live the way he commands too, but it's for our own good and it's right, any way you slice it.

What I am suggesting is that because something is outside the norm does not mean that it is a choice - ergo the argument you make, or that was made by someone, that b/c homosexuality is outside the norm makes it a choice, is wrong.

I did not make that argument. My contention is that just because something is genetic or a natural predisposition doesn’t mean that we simply roll over and accept it, or embrace and champion it.

 

Just because something is genetic, does not automatically make it acceptable and good.

Jesus - the one who says "to follow His commandments" never once mentions homosexuality.

Jesus taught in Matthew 15:17-20 (and paralleled in Mark 7:18-23) "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"

 

I would suggest that the traditional and long accepted understanding of “sexual immorality” includes homosexuality.

I did not make that argument. My contention is that just because something is genetic or a natural predisposition doesn’t mean that we simply roll over and accept it, or embrace and champion it.

 

Just because something is genetic, does not automatically make it acceptable and good.

Jesus taught in Matthew 15:17-20 (and paralleled in Mark 7:18-23) "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"

 

 

 

I would suggest that the traditional and long accepted understanding of “sexual immorality” includes homosexuality.

 

The statement in the post above was that it was not the norm, therefore it is a choice. UNTRUE

 

And the pharisees and saducess had a traditional and long accepted understanding of what the rules were and the Radical Jesus showed them how wrong they were.

The statement in the post above was that it was not the norm, therefore it is a choice. UNTRUE

 

And the pharisees and saducess had a traditional and long accepted understanding of what the rules were and the Radical Jesus showed them how wrong they were.

 

So are you saying that Jesus did not think sexual immorality was wrong?

Can anyone explain why gay men talk gay. Did they choose to have that voice?

I actually heard something about this topic earlier today. I didn't read the whole thread so somebody else might have already mentioned this. Anyways, supposedly the youngest child is more likely to be homosexual due to the mother. Apparently it starts from the time the child is in the womb and continues on. I don't know all the details and don't buy it one bit but just thought I would add it to the conversation.

And the pharisees and saducess had a traditional and long accepted understanding of what the rules were and the Radical Jesus showed them how wrong they were.

One of the defining characteristics of the Pharisees and Sadducees was their dogged and prideful determination to cling to erroneous interpretation and understanding even when confronted with the Truth in the flesh.

 

The Book of Jude is a tiny little letter at the end of the New Testament, right before Revelations.

 

Jude was a physical half-brother of Jesus, raised in the same household as the Messiah. He did not accept him as anything more than his big brother until Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected, at which time Jude became a believer and a missionary of the Gospel. (Pretty good evidence for the actual death and resurrection of Jesus Christ if you ask me.)

 

Jude writes about true Christians contending for the faith against false Christians who have “secretly slipped in”. In verses 5-19 Jude explains the nature of the false teachers as smooth talking deceivers who rejected all moral standards and indulged in all manner of immoral behavior including sexual immorality. Their teaching was derived largely from individual subjective experiences. Jude’s main theme is an appeal to Christians to hold on to the true Christian faith despite false teachers.

 

I find it interesting that the brother of Jesus chose to illustrate his message with a reminder of the very real nature of the sin and punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah. He describes the very situation we’re discussing here… “…men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality…” There can be little doubt as to his intended meaning.

 

Jude 1:3-7 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

You didn't choose to be heterosexual because that is how God created you. It is the norm---anything outside this norm is simply a choice, period. And before you go there . . . God did not create some to be homosexual and others heterosexual . . . he cannot go against Himself.

That's completely untrue. Then what about certain races, hair colors, eye colors, midgets, albinos... the list goes on and on. All of these things are out of the norm but were created by your god. Are they morally wrong?