July 8, 201610 yr I don't know what the procedures are for things like this.... If the guy is resisting, which he clearly was, and verbal commands don't work, they taze. If that doesn't work and he's still resisting, from your post it sounds like they than go to a physical approach. If that still doesn't work, and the guy is still resisting, is lethal force the next step, even if the resistance isn't violent? I have to believe that in the case of being told to stand down, get down, stop, tasered, tackled, 2 on 1 restraint....that there is no reasonable way one could say this was not a violent resistance. In a fight to contain, irrespective of domestic law enforcement or otherwise, the general principle is to close with and overpower the other combatant. Use of deadly force is a last resort to non-compliance, specifically when there is a danger to yourself and others around you. You also do not discharge a weapon without the intent of stopping the action. The decision to discharge a weapon should, in all cases, be done to terminate the threat. This was hand to hand combat to protect the lives of the people around this guy. He lost because he chose the wrong actions in his decision to enter a combative situation.
July 8, 201610 yr I was planning on sitting this one out BB. I get you. It seems like there is sufficient professional response to validate the situation.
July 8, 201610 yr Both cops had the man's arms pinned down and not moving. At that point, is it even necessary to pull out your gun? You have the man pretty much defenseless at that point. So you could tell from that video with 100% certainty he couldn't move his arms? You aren't watching it very closely then. You can see his right shoulder moving as if he's moving his right arm.
July 8, 201610 yr I have to believe that in the case of being told to stand down, get down, stop, tasered, tackled, 2 on 1 restraint....that there is no reasonable way one could say this was not a violent resistance. In a fight to contain, irrespective of domestic law enforcement or otherwise, the general principle is to close with and overpower the other combatant. Use of deadly force is a last resort to non-compliance, specifically when there is a danger to yourself and others around you. You also do not discharge a weapon without the intent of stopping the action. The decision to discharge a weapon should, in all cases, be done to terminate the threat. This was hand to hand combat to protect the lives of the people around this guy. He lost because he chose the wrong actions in his decision to enter a combative situation. Fair enough. I guess my question boils down to simply, if the extent of his actions was simply physically resisting, is that a scenario where lethal force is typically used?
July 8, 201610 yr Fair enough. I guess my question boils down to simply, if the extent of his actions was simply physically resisting, is that a scenario where lethal force is typically used? No, shouldn't be. If there is no weapon and suspect doesn't do anything to make the officer feel his life is in danger, then it's just wait for back up or use different "encouragement" to get them to comply.
July 8, 201610 yr Fair enough. I guess my question boils down to simply, if the extent of his actions was simply physically resisting, is that a scenario where lethal force is typically used?
July 8, 201610 yr Author Fair enough. I guess my question boils down to simply, if the extent of his actions was simply physically resisting, is that a scenario where lethal force is typically used? Good question. I've seen cops handle drunks several times in the same way with the exception of the lethal force.
July 8, 201610 yr [ATTACH]56793[/ATTACH] Thanks for supplying this. Demonstrates it perfectly Can you define the differences between "Soft Empty Hands" and "Hard Empty Hands" ?
July 8, 201610 yr Thanks for supplying this. Demonstrates it perfectly Can you define the differences between "Soft Empty Hands" and "Hard Empty Hands" ? Guide vs. Force
July 8, 201610 yr Thanks for supplying this. Demonstrates it perfectly Can you define the differences between "Soft Empty Hands" and "Hard Empty Hands" ? Physically guiding someone such as having to guide their arms behind their back for cuffs instead of saying put your hands behind your back and them complying would be an example of soft empty hands. Hard empty would be using superior strength or "tackling" someone to the ground to effect an arrest would be an example of hard empty hands.
July 8, 201610 yr If that was a gun, it's the smallest one I've ever seen. That was my first thought as well, but I admittedly haven't been around all that many guns... This is a photo of a 25 auto that holds 8 rounds of ammunition.
July 8, 201610 yr Thanks for the info. Will be interesting to see if that turns out to be what they pulled from his pocket.
July 8, 201610 yr I don't know what the procedures are for things like this.... If the guy is resisting, which he clearly was, and verbal commands don't work, they taze. If that doesn't work and he's still resisting, from your post it sounds like they than go to a physical approach. If that still doesn't work, and the guy is still resisting, is lethal force the next step, even if the resistance isn't violent? Depends on the situation each one is different based on the information and available resources. What he was doing was a violent resistance. That's not a passive resistance. In this incident I'm not sure what lead to the hands on approach. He looked to be a big guy. Ideally you'd call for more help and over power with numbers, which then you'd have people complaining about how 5 officers attacked 1 black man...... With that said if a guy has a gun or you think he's got a gun. Hands on is usually the last thing you want to have to do. There's just not enough information to know how or why things continued to escalate.
July 8, 201610 yr Fair enough. I guess my question boils down to simply, if the extent of his actions was simply physically resisting, is that a scenario where lethal force is typically used? IF he's physically resisting by trying to get a gun from his pocket or waste band then YES. Yes that would be an appropriate reaction. If not, then keep trying to get the man under control and call for back up.
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