As a matter of fact, I would say that there is only one. The one Jesus established, His church. The Kingdom of God. Christ built his church and he died for her. It is man who has built divisions.

 

Of course there is no room in this already crowded discussion for this topic, but it is a good one. :thumb:

 

It would be a good topic, but we certainly cannot say "the church" as if everyone would be meaning the same one.

I'm not sure how this discussion has turned into comparing how Christians feel about homosexuality in comparison to heterosexual sin. It's not remotely true that Christians condone heterosexual sin but denounce homosexual sin. I don't know where those dots were connected, but a pure fallacy, nonetheless.

 

I initially connected those dots because I questioned the extent of debate surrounding homosexuality (7+ pages worth of debate on here) yet not one mention of heterosexual pre-marital sex, homosexuality's "sin-filled" counterpart. Just strange to me that while both acts are comparable, per your contention (post #127), heterosexuals engaging in pre-marital sex don't seem to be judged anywhere near as harshly by their peers.

 

My point? There are probably people on this board who condemn homosexuality that have likely engaged in equally sinful acts in their past. And for that, I'll throw out the following well-known verse: Matthew 7:1-5. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

 

I'd like to think that this Scripture fits well within the context of this discussion. Do you agree or disagree?

I initially connected those dots because I questioned the extent of debate surrounding homosexuality (7+ pages worth of debate on here) yet not one mention of heterosexual pre-marital sex, homosexuality's "sin-filled" counterpart. Just strange to me that while both acts are comparable, per your contention (post #127), heterosexuals engaging in pre-marital sex don't seem to be judged anywhere near as harshly by their peers.

 

My point? There are probably people on this board who condemn homosexuality that have likely engaged in equally sinful acts in their past. And for that, I'll throw out the following well-known verse: Matthew 7:1-5. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

 

I'd like to think that this Scripture fits well within the context of this discussion. Do you agree or disagree?

 

 

Well said.

Some parts of the Bible are literal and some are figurative. You can't take everything as literal or everything as figurative.

I initially connected those dots because I questioned the extent of debate surrounding homosexuality (7+ pages worth of debate on here) yet not one mention of heterosexual pre-marital sex, homosexuality's "sin-filled" counterpart. Just strange to me that while both acts are comparable, per your contention (post #127), heterosexuals engaging in pre-marital sex don't seem to be judged anywhere near as harshly by their peers.

 

My point? There are probably people on this board who condemn homosexuality that have likely engaged in equally sinful acts in their past. And for that, I'll throw out the following well-known verse: Matthew 7:1-5. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

 

I'd like to think that this Scripture fits well within the context of this discussion. Do you agree or disagree?

I absolutely agree. But the whole topic in this thread is homosexuality. We could go on about other sins, other sexual immoralities. But this thread topic is homosexuality. If we have a thread along the lines of the differences, scripturally or morally, and similarities of heter or homo sin, they're all the same. My only point is to say that it's not true at all that Christ or Christians condone heterosexual sin like adultery, sex outside the parameters of marriage. I would have to guess that there are/were a majority of folks on this board who had, or do currently have heterosexual relations that would fall under the category of sexual immorality. Still every bit the sin as homosexual sin.

 

And I don't want to go any further down this path without clearing something. I've not only given this topic, this thread alot of thought, and it's really bothered me. First, I don't want to argue (although it's totally in my nature) for the sake of argument or attempting to prove my thoughts or disprove someone's thoughts. I believe the scripture to be true. I'm fully convinced that Revelations and the prophecy and signs of the end times are nigh. I'm not being poetic, and I understand that has been the mindset of Christians for ages upon ages. But I am serious and honest when I say that if I understand the book of Revelation correctly, we are in a perfect place soon for the return of Christ. The military and political position and stance of the neighbors of Israel for starters. With that said, I am also fully convinced that the ONLY way to Heaven is through God's son. I am convinced that there aren't many ways. Not several paths. And with much deliberation and thought, I don't want my answers or my thoughts on this subject to be a hindrance to anyone. Nor do I want it to be a stumbling block for someone who hasn't made Christ their savior. I, frequently, am a poor example of a Christian. I struggle like most everyone on this board with issues of the flesh, with anger, scorn and all the rest. It's sincerely my prayer that everyone of us makes it to Heaven. I'm also convinced that there is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain. I'll submit one last section of scripture in Romans chapter 1 where Paul addresses God's wrath against sinful humanity.

 

Romans 1:18-32

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since that what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what they ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

I think that it's clear here. I understand some think that God's word is full of parables and metaphor. But I don't, and with that understanding, this is a scripture that I can't ignore.

Five weeks ago today I became a born again christian.Five weeks ago plus two days(Friday the 13th)My wife and I were brought to our knees,because of something that happened concerning our Son.This was something I knew that I could not fix on my own.I got down on my knees and I prayed to Jesus for guidance and support.The last five weeks I have went from the lowest point of my life to the strongest I have ever been.

 

I have been on the Lords path before,and I have always ended up lost.The reason I believe that I have lost my faith so many times before is because I relied on the preacher,the bible and other peoples opinions.

 

This time around God told me,that from now on to listen to him.He wants me to have a personal relationship with him.He told me to stop getting bent out of shape about what others think and believe!He wants me to seek answers from him,and He will provide me with the directions and knowledge that I need.

 

I've been talking to him about this homosexual thing and He knows that I'm not gay,and whoever is it's not up to me to tell them that they are wrong.He just want's me to pray for them,that they have a personal relationship with Christ.He will let them know what's right and wrong.

 

Christ also told me that I have bigger fish to fry than getting all wrapped up in same sex marriage.

For example,Greed.I need to worry more about the homeless,the hungry and the sick especially when I've been blessed to live in a nice home,I never have to worry about eating,I'm healthy,and so much more!

 

I truly believe that I am going to stay on Gods path the rest of my life,not because of church,not because of any rules or laws,and not what any man tells me even if it came to him directly from God.

This time around I am going to rely on my personal relationship with Christ.I truly believe with all of my heart that he has restored my faith to trust in him,and he will keep me in the right direction.

I also believe that God speaks to us all differently,and that we can interpret things differently.

So it's not my place to debate anyone else about what convictions they receive from God.

 

Pray for me brothers and sisters,I know that I sure could use them...

 

Pray for me brothers and sisters,I know that I sure could use them...

I'll do that very thing AA.

Five weeks ago today I became a born again christian.Five weeks ago plus two days(Friday the 13th)My wife and I were brought to our knees,because of something that happened concerning our Son.This was something I knew that I could not fix on my own.I got down on my knees and I prayed to Jesus for guidance and support.The last five weeks I have went from the lowest point of my life to the strongest I have ever been.

 

I have been on the Lords path before,and I have always ended up lost.The reason I believe that I have lost my faith so many times before is because I relied on the preacher,the bible and other peoples opinions.

 

This time around God told me,that from now on to listen to him.He wants me to have a personal relationship with him.He told me to stop getting bent out of shape about what others think and believe!He wants me to seek answers from him,and He will provide me with the directions and knowledge that I need.

 

I've been talking to him about this homosexual thing and He knows that I'm not gay,and whoever is it's not up to me to tell them that they are wrong.He just want's me to pray for them,that they have a personal relationship with Christ.He will let them know what's right and wrong.

 

Christ also told me that I have bigger fish to fry than getting all wrapped up in same sex marriage.

For example,Greed.I need to worry more about the homeless,the hungry and the sick especially when I've been blessed to live in a nice home,I never have to worry about eating,I'm healthy,and so much more!

 

I truly believe that I am going to stay on Gods path the rest of my life,not because of church,not because of any rules or laws,and not what any man tells me even if it came to him directly from God.

This time around I am going to rely on my personal relationship with Christ.I truly believe with all of my heart that he has restored my faith to trust in him,and he will keep me in the right direction.

I also believe that God speaks to us all differently,and that we can interpret things differently.

So it's not my place to debate anyone else about what convictions they receive from God.

 

Pray for me brothers and sisters,I know that I sure could use them...

 

I am so happy for you, AA, that you have that personal relationship with God and that He has brought you comfort. I will pray for His continued guidance, my dear friend!

Can I make a request that in the next round of site upgrades we find us a smiley of crickets chirping? Because it would come in handy for a thread like this one.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

...

 

First, let me say that I very much appreciate your well thought-out post. I have read and considered every word. These are the type of conversations that I personally feel God wants me to have...and in a strange way, BGP has been a source of that for me...which is one of the many reasons that I miss Alabama Larry so much.

 

If it is okay, I'll address several points from your post individually.

 

My only point is to say that it's not true at all that Christ or Christians condone heterosexual sin like adultery, sex outside the parameters of marriage. I would have to guess that there are/were a majority of folks on this board who had, or do currently have heterosexual relations that would fall under the category of sexual immorality. Still every bit the sin as homosexual sin.

 

Again, why the very high concentration on homosexual immorality? I will differ with you that Christians feel exactly the same way about heterosexual immorality. Certainly, some due, but the majority of the ones that I see do not speak about it, while denouncing homosexual immorality.

 

I'm fully convinced that Revelations and the prophecy and signs of the end times are nigh. I'm not being poetic, and I understand that has been the mindset of Christians for ages upon ages. But I am serious and honest when I say that if I understand the book of Revelation correctly, we are in a perfect place soon for the return of Christ. The military and political position and stance of the neighbors of Israel for starters.

 

You very well could be right. History shows many situations where signs of the end of times seemed to be clear and the end inevitable. But, as God's word says...no one, not even the angels in Heaven know the day nor the hour. The lesson there is that we all must be ready at any moment. When the day and hour came for my mother, I had absolutely no doubt that she was ready. From what I knew of Alabama Larry, I'd say the same thing. I struggle to live up to their example, but I work at it daily.

 

Romans 1:18-32

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since that what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what they ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

I am glad that you shared this passage with me. I have been asking for a New Testament passage that discusses homosexuality. In the same passage, I see discussion of heterosexual immorality. It certainly doesn't say that one is worse than the other or that homosexuality is the only thing that will invite God's judgment on us. (Not your words, that would that of the Chick-Fil-A CEO and many others that I know.)

 

As a result, it would lead me to believe that both homosexuality would be a wrong choice for me (no problem there), as would heterosexual immorality (and that, unfortunately is an area that I've had to ask God's forgiveness in). I don't believe that our laws should be steeped only in Christian beliefs (though there are other religions that also would teach that both homosexuality and heterosexual immorality are wrong) so I can't say that I think that we should make laws that prohibit either.

 

 

I think that it's clear here. I understand some think that God's word is full of parables and metaphor. But I don't, and with that understanding, this is a scripture that I can't ignore.

 

I used to be the same way, too, based on my early religious upbringing. Over time, with much analysis and yes, education in certain areas, along with my own "conversations with God" I've come to believe that the message is what is important and not quibbling over the details. For example, I don't believe that in Joshua 10:13 that the sun literally stopped. For one, we unequivocally know that it is the Earth that orbits the sun, not the other way around. To me, the message is that God helped the righteous conquer their enemies. Another part for me, as I've said, is that knowing the books of the Bible were written by men and chosen by another group of men. I do believe that the books are inspired by God, but I do not believe that each word is literal.

 

Would the Bible be less powerful to you if every word is not literal? It is exactly the opposite for me.

 

Again, thank you for the depth of your post.

I am glad that you shared this passage with me. I have been asking for a New Testament passage that discusses homosexuality.

I haven't forgotten, TB&G. Today has been a very busy day and I have been working on a response to your question. Not quite ready to post it yet. That passage from Romans is central to what I am working on too along with a couple of others.

Pray for me brothers and sisters,I know that I sure could use them...

I am happy to hear the good news and I encourage you on your personal walk with God. I will pray for you, AA, please do the same for me. I need all the prayers I can get.

 

In your walk, remember 2 Tim 2:15. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"

Christ also told me that I have bigger fish to fry than getting all wrapped up in same sex marriage.

For example,Greed.I need to worry more about the homeless,the hungry and the sick especially when I've been blessed to live in a nice home,I never have to worry about eating,I'm healthy,and so much more!

Amen!

Here's my problem with many people that argue against scripture. Most have never read it.

 

I have, multiple times.

Let me take a stab at it. The church has always stood against homosexuality as well as sex outside of marriage for heterosexuals. I do not see a double standard that the church is taking because...............

 

I think the church feels that it is being attacked by a world that claims that homsexuality is acceptable in the eyes of the Lord.

The church does not feel as though they are being attacked by a world that claims that pre-marital sex is acceptable in hte eyes of the Lord.

No one is claiming that people are "born" having pre-marital sex, but others are claming that people are "born" with homosexuality.

Therefore the homosexual issues are the ones that the church is most vocal about.

It is not a double standard, both are wrong, but only one of those issues seems to be thrusted into the spotlight.

 

I am not asking if you agree, but do you at least understand my attempt to explain this?

 

I don't get this line of thinking. I'm pretty sure most of those folks just want to be left alone by the Bible-tossers.