I weigh 220. I will not get my head pounded into the ground by 140 pound kid. Ever.

 

Like everything else though the sizes are in dispute. I saw reports that had Martin at 6' 160lbs and Zimmerman at 5'9" and 180 lbs. It was claimed that reports of his weighing 250lbs were several years old.

Like everything else though the sizes are in dispute. I saw reports that had Martin at 6' 160lbs and Zimmerman at 5'9" and 180 lbs. It was claimed that reports of his weighing 250lbs were several years old.

 

He looked more than 180 in the video but video makes everyone look fat. :lol:

He looked more than 180 in the video but video makes everyone look fat. :lol:

I agree he looks bigger then 180 in the video but he also looks to be a far cry from 240. I would guess some where around 200 depending on how tall he is.

I weigh 220. I will not get my head pounded into the ground by 140 pound kid. Ever.

You think someone like...say...Floyd Mayweather might do a lot more damage to you than you think?

Thank you. Tommy Hearns might jab me a couple times, but I'm gonna tackle his wiry behind and beat him senseless, using every weighty advantage I have at my disposal. I'm no boxer and I don't have to play by his rules.

 

I know you are a big dude, but I am calling shenanigans. Tommy Hearns would work you and everyone else on this board. I do not care who you are, fighting is a skill that uses a ton of energy in no time. You would wear down in a matter of seconds Just like I would assume an overweight guy like Zimmerman would (*sidenote, I love talking about sport hypothetical situations such as if I had 99 swings against Nolan Ryan...). Not saying that is what took place, but I am NOT drawing a conclusion like some are that just because he outweighed Martin he could not have had his tail whipped.

Habib, "liking" that post isn't really good enough. Thank you for putting together such an excellent, detailed description of how many of us think about this case.

 

Thanks Tb&g.

I know you are a big dude, but I am calling shenanigans. Tommy Hearns would work you and everyone else on this board. I do not care who you are, fighting is a skill that uses a ton of energy in no time. You would wear down in a matter of seconds Just like I would assume an overweight guy like Zimmerman would (*sidenote, I love talking about sport hypothetical situations such as if I had 99 swings against Nolan Ryan...). Not saying that is what took place, but I am NOT drawing a conclusion like some are that just because he outweighed Martin he could not have had his tail whipped.

 

Very true. It also supports my hypothesis that the result of any brawl does not determine who started it, which may be pertinent here.

I weigh 220. I will not get my head pounded into the ground by 140 pound kid. Ever.

 

Don't know how many fights you've been in; maybe a lot. But I've seen plenty of scrawny folks flat layout bigger people. Heck one of those incidents happened in Danville. Me and a friend, a former Ranger (who probably didn't weigh more than 160), left Centre's campus to walk to the nearby convenient store down by the railroad tracks and Spivey's. When the two of us came out, there were about 8 "townies" looking for trouble. Some of them were pretty big old boys. Before I could "dispose" of one of them, my scrawny little friend had 4 of them on the ground bleeding, and the other 2 or 3 were hightailing it out of there.

I haven’t had much to add since all of these threads have run off the rails along with our frenzied, juvenile media. I think most of the dialogue has departed from the case at hand and moved toward race more broadly anyway. I don’t think there’s much more to add, not at least until all of the evidence is made available or this case is tried in a court. But, I think the perception has somehow changed that with NBC’s ridiculous editing of the 911 tapes (I had only heard the full versions, not NBC’s hack job, for the record) and CNN’s ratings-chasing “analysis” of the possible use of a racial slur that those of us who initially found this case compelling or were otherwise skeptical of the “official” story are somehow proven wrong or were somehow duped into following the case in the first place. I think it’s unfortunate how the media has handled this, but it’s also worth reiterating my thoughts from these various threads. There are many issues in this case that have not been dealt with and the further investigation by the state was justified.

 

The Initial Investigation

 

A lot of people have found the initial investigation of the case to be suspect. What that boils down to is an appearance of an outright acceptance of Zimmerman’s story despite very little objective evidence. It also seems that the investigation unfolded in a manner that seemed to have already accepted Zimmerman’s story. It also didn’t help that Chief Lee struggled to answer questions on the case and often tried to make himself sound like the victim. Coupled with the following points and that a lot of people were given the impression Lee was making excuses for problems with the case instead of dealing with them I think a lot of people feel this wasn’t flawlessly executed.

 

1. There were only a few (two?) “eyewitnesses,” which is among the least reliable forms of evidence. To wit, one of these eyewitnesses has since come forward and claimed they weren’t sure what they saw, but police suggested to them that it was Zimmerman getting the worst of the fight and they simply agreed. None of them claim to have seen how the altercation began.

2. Martin was taken to the hospital/morgue as a John Doe. His parents had to file a missing persons report and weren’t able to confirm he was dead and where his body was for at least three days. This means that the initial investigation was unaware of what Martin was doing in the neighborhood, where he was going, etc. Relevant information, no? It also suggests that the only available account of Martin that night was Zimmerman’s, who said he was “up to no good” or “on drugs or something.”

3. Martin was also allegedly on the phone around the time of the incident. His phone records and the person he was last talking to were not checked. It would seem that an interview with his interlocutor would be important evidence. I wonder how tainted that evidence is now since it has emerged after the media firestorm.

4. Again following from the acceptance of Zimmerman’s story, Martin’s body was tested for drugs and alcohol. Zimmerman, the one who possessed and fired a weapon, was not. Again, isn’t this relevant? Is this standard practice is potential homicide cases?

5. Martin’s parents were eventually informed that Zimmerman was not arrested or charged in part because he had a “squeaky clean record.” I don’t think that is a good reason to charge or not charge someone. But, it is also false. Zimmerman did have a record of battery against a police officer.

 

Zimmerman’s Story

 

I think one of the main issues that has motivated outrage in the case are the facts that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not, Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good, followed him, shot him dead, and was able to claim self-defense. Perhaps this is justice, but many do not see it that way as has oft been pointed out: if Zimmerman simply waited for the police this wouldn’t be an issue. Beyond that, there are some reasons to be skeptical of Zimmerman’s claims and the original investigators (Chief Lee) didn’t do a very good job in affirming them to the public.

 

We obviously have no idea what happened between Zimmerman and Martin. We only have Zimmerman’s side to tell, and he has a fairly strong reason to tell it in a particular way. But, from the informational available to the public I think there has been some reason for skepticism. Zimmerman claimed that he was not following Martin, and his father wrote a piece for the newspaper that claimed unequivocally that his son in no way followed Martin. But, the 911 tapes indicate that this isn’t true, Zimmerman was following Martin.

 

The shooting also took place on a path between buildings where people often walk their dogs, which from the Google map of the neighborhood is not something accessible to vehicles. All of this seems to suggest Zimmeran was out of his vehicle and following Martin on foot, which seems to contradict the official story.

 

Additionally, Zimmerman also says the reason he was out of his vehicle was to read the street signs. This is interesting since there are only three streets in this neighborhood and Zimmerman had been “patrolling” them for upwards of ten years. Many find it hard to believe he didn’t know where he was, especially as the 911 tapes indicate he was directing police to locations in the neighborhood with ease. It also appears from the 911 call that Zimmerman was not in his truck when he was following Martin (or maybe he had the windows down, but it was a rainy night) as wind was audible. This again makes one suspicious of Zimmerman’s story of getting out of his truck to read a street sign and getting blindsided, especially when he was on the dog-walking path off the road.

 

Obviously, there might be more to the story or a good explanation that absolves all of this, but for all of the people defending Zimmerman: this is one of the reasons why his story has not been completely bought by the public and why people have felt the investigation wasn’t entirely diligent. Coupled with the racial angle, it again makes Zimmerman out to be the instigator. I should also add that this case didn’t erupt nationally until the 911 tapes were released, which is what drove many people’s suspicion of Zimmerman’s story as it appears to not match up cleanly.

 

Much has been made of the size and age differences of the two men, particularly that the much older and bigger man was allegedly being manhandled so much so that he “reasonably believed” his life was in danger. I don’t think that necessarily suggests anything one way or another, but as Hatz has said I do think forensics could help corroborate or challenge this. I don’t know a lot about it, but it would seem that they would be able to find the angle of the shot, the distance of the shot, etc. that would tell investigators quite a bit. I’m not sure if this was done or is being done, but from the way the investigation proceeded I imagine it was not.

 

What Has Made This a Controversy

 

Obviously, the racial aspect of this case helped draw it to national attention. Zimmerman described Martin as “real suspicious,” a criminal “*******,” and “on drugs or something” all based on his appearance. That’s basically the trifecta of young black male stereotypes. It’s hard to believe that Martin’s race wasn’t the primary driver of Zimmerman’s behavior that night.

 

I also think many people looked at the available facts of the case and the investigation and asked themselves the counterfactual: if Martin were white and Zimmerman were black would things have played out exactly the same way? For many, “not likely” is probably the answer. I imagine most feel that if Martin were white Zimmerman would not have suspected him to be up to no good. I also imagine most feel the investigation might have proceeded differently if Martin were white. Obviously hypotheticals can’t be proven. But, our answers to a question like this reflect the lens with which we view the case and it’s not surprising that it breaks down along partisan lines (which has also contributed to the bitterness over the case).

 

Lastly, Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law also made this case controversial, as Zimmerman’s use of deadly force was justified under the law according to the Sanford Police. I think many people were troubled by the law’s ability to protect the armed, wrongheaded vigilante in this situation and not the unarmed. It seems the law opens the door for unrestrained vigilantism. If you can put yourself in a situation like this, claim to feel threatened, and respond with legal deadly force, when can’t you? The law only requires that the person using deadly force “reasonably believe” it necessary.

 

I don’t know what happened that night. I don’t think any of us ever will. But, I think there are some reasons to be skeptical based on the information available, which is why I think more needs to be done on this case (and wouldn’t have been done if it weren’t for the national outcry). Either there needs to be a trial where both sides can present their case, challenge one another, and allow a jury to decide, or the investigators need to do a much better job of presenting the evidence that absolves Zimmerman of all wrongdoing. As of now, it’s his word against a dead man’s with just enough evidence available to the public to make most skeptical of the investigation’s conclusions. I don’t think that’s a good situation.

 

Very nice post: well written and well stated. I've got no problem with people questioning the initial investigation. If it was as flawed as you suggest, heads should roll.

 

My problem has been the rush to judgment that Zimmerman should have been arrested, based on the "evidence" released to date. It's like people have totally forgotten already the Duke lacrosse situation of several years back.

 

I find it somewhat peculiar that some of those claiming Zimmerman was acting as a vigilante have conducted themselves in the exact same manner towards him.

I saw a report today that Zimmerman may be arrested soon.

You think someone like...say...Floyd Mayweather might do a lot more damage to you than you think?

 

:lol:

 

 

When did Floyd Mayweather become a 17 year old kid? Apples to oranges.....

 

 

I repeat, I'm not going to get my head pounded into the ground by a kid that I outweigh by at least 80 pounds. Unless the kid has some sort of Greco wrestling/MMA type background that isn't happening. Over my dead body.

Don't know how many fights you've been in; maybe a lot. But I've seen plenty of scrawny folks flat layout bigger people. Heck one of those incidents happened in Danville. Me and a friend, a former Ranger (who probably didn't weigh more than 160), left Centre's campus to walk to the nearby convenient store down by the railroad tracks and Spivey's. When the two of us came out, there were about 8 "townies" looking for trouble. Some of them were pretty big old boys. Before I could "dispose" of one of them, my scrawny little friend had 4 of them on the ground bleeding, and the other 2 or 3 were hightailing it out of there.

 

 

Yeah, but you're talking about a former Ranger with skills to kill not a 17 year old kid. Tremendous difference.

I saw a report today that Zimmerman may be arrested soon.

 

Wasn't April 10th supposed to be a big day in all of this or some kind of deadline... or did I imagine that?

:lol:

 

 

When did Floyd Mayweather become a 17 year old kid? Apples to oranges.....

 

 

I repeat, I'm not going to get my head pounded into the ground by a kid that I outweigh by at least 80 pounds. Unless the kid has some sort of Greco wrestling/MMA type background that isn't happening. Over my dead body.

Never say never, there a lot of 17 year old "kids" that are not only very quick, but can fight. Also, if they know what they're doing, a small guy can bring a big guy down fast, your knee will buckle like anyone else.

Never say never, there a lot of 17 year old "kids" that are not only very quick, but can fight. Also, if they know what they're doing, a small guy can bring a big guy down fast, your knee will buckle like anyone else.

 

True...and I don't carry so in that situation I'd be laying on the ground in a heap of humiliation. I'd pick my fights wisely though. If I thought he could take me I wouldn't mess with him.