April 13, 201214 yr [*]A "person of ordinary judgment" would know the act, or series of acts, "is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another"; [*]The act is "done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent"; and [*]The act is "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life." (emphasis added) 1. He got out of his truck with a gun. Yes there is a conceal carry law, but getting out of your truck with a gun is dually noted that it can cause cause serious bodily injury or kill another. 2. The act is obviously done in ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent. "These a-holes, they always get away." He thought Trayvon was up to no good. Remember, I';ve always said Zimmerman guessed wrong. 3. Go back to No. 1 for this. Also remember Trayvon is screaming for help as well. The way he is screaming suggests he was giving himself up. As I have always said, he sounds like he was hurt already. But the mortician said he had no signs of a scuffle. That will be easiest to prove because also the 9-1-1 operator told Zimmerman his help was not needed. This clearly shows he could care less he was setting his scene and was going to act out his dream. I don't know what you do for a living, but the law is not in your future. Carrying a weapon in and of itself is not reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another. If so, every day I leave my house, I'm reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another. The fact that I haven't killed or done serious bodily injury to someone in the 5 plus years I've had my permit and carried disproves the reasonably certain aspect. If it was reasonably certain to happen, it would have happened at least once in the past 5 years, wouldn't it? Calling someone an @@@hole may be evidence of ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent but by itself I don't think it carries the burden. Hopely the Special has e mails or witnesses who will testify that Zimmerman has stated something to the effect "I'll get these guys whatever it takes" etc in the past. No way that ignoring the dispatcher in and of itself constitutes an indifference to human life. Aren't there conflicting opinions as to whether it was Zimmerman or Martin screaming? Not sure it is relevant to this element anyway; more relevant to the claim of self defense that Zimmerman will surely raise.
April 13, 201214 yr Maybe the special prosecutor knows something we don't. Wouldn't the special prosecutor be privy to information that we don't know? Could be and I certainly hope she does.
April 13, 201214 yr I believe it was last week where two separate forensic analysts concluded that the voice crying for help on the tape was nt Zimmerman.
April 13, 201214 yr Could be and I certainly hope she does. Me, too. I was shocked with the murder charge.
April 13, 201214 yr I believe it was last week where two separate forensic analysts concluded that the voice crying for help on the tape was nt Zimmerman. I may have read that also. I assume the Special will offer evidence from a forensic expert that it was not Zimmerman screaming for help. If the defense offers evidence from it's forensic experts saying it was Zimmerman, the jury will have differing testimony on the issue. Which one does the jury believe? If they go with the prosecutor's expert, can the jury believe it beyond a reasonable doubt? Again, I'm hoping the Special has forensic evidence indicating that Zimmerman was not within a certain distance of Martin when he pulled the trigger (absence of gun powder residue, analysis of the blood splatter, etc); evidence indicating that Zimmerman was not on his back as claimed; some credible eye witness testimony; etc. Without such I don't see a 2nd degree murder conviction. Without such type of evidence, I think a jury would have a hard time determing beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmeran committed murder if Zimmerman's testimony goes along the lines of: "I walked up to Martin to ask him who he was and what he was doing in the neighborhood. Given the recent burglaries in the neighborhood maybe that was reasonable for me to do so; maybe it wasn't. When I did so I wasn't looking for trouble; I wasn't intending to try and arrest him; I wasn't looking to apprehend him. I just wanted to find out who he was. Had he simply told me his name and explained that he was staying at the houlse of his father's fiance in the neighborhood and was walking back from the convenient store, I'd have said thanks and asked him to be on the lookout for strangers because of the recent burglaries. But he didnt' do that. When I approached him and asked him who he was, he hit me and knocked me down. He started hitting me and I feared for my life. I felt that I had no choice but to shoot him to save my life. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't approached him at all, but that didn't give him the right to hit me, knock me down and start hitting my head against the ground. I feel extremely bad that I killed the young man, but at that moment I felt I had no choice but to pull the trigger to save my own life." Or even worse for the prosecution: "When I left my vehicle, I only did so to follow Mr. Martin. I had not intended to even talk to him. I was just going to follow him because I knew the police were on their way and I didn't want him to slip away before the police arrived. So I was following him. However, he evidently noticed I was following him becaue he pulled up his hood and started walking faster. Eventually he turned around and walked toward me and asked what I was doing following him. I explained that I was on the neighborhood watch, there have been multiple burglaries in the neighborhood, that I had seen him walking through the neighborhood and had called the police who were on the way to talk to him. Unfortunately, Mr. Martin became confrontational, then he hit me and knocked me down, got on top of me and starting hitting my head against the ground. I feared for my life and felt I had no choice but to shoot Mr. Martin. I feel extremely bad that I killed the young man, but at that moment I felt I had no choice but to pull the trigger to save my own life." Again, if the Special has solid evidence indicating such testimony would be inaccurate, she may be able to convince a jury beyond every reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder. I just haven't seen it yet (which doesn't not mean the Special does not have it). For those not familiar with "reasonable doubt", it is a very high burden that the Special must prove. I believe this is the current Florida standard instruction given to the jurors on reasonable doubt: "A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand, if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if, having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find the defendant not guilty because the doubt is reasonable. It is to the evidence introduced in this trial and to it alone, that you are to look for that proof. A reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the defendant may arise from the evidence, conflict in the evidence, or the lack of evidence ." (emphasis added)
April 13, 201214 yr I finally read the transcript of Zimmerman's call to the police. I was rather surprised when I read it because a lot of people have posted on here that the dispatcher directed Zimmerman to stay in his truck and not to follow Martin. The dispatcher said no such thing. The dispatcher said, and I quote, "We don’t need you to do that". Such is a far, far cry than the dispatcher directing Zimmerman not to get out of his vehicle. I believe this is the official transcript of the call: Zimmerman: Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25] 911 dispatcher:OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman:cHe looks black. 911 dispatcher:cDid you see what he was wearing? Zimmerman:Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. Either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42] 911 dispatcher:He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK. Zimmerman:Now he’s just staring at me. [00:48] 911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111? Zimmerman:That’s the clubhouse. 911 dispatcher:He’s near the clubhouse right now? Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. And he’s a black male.[1:03] 911 dispatcher: OK How old would you say he is? Zimmerman: He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens. 911 dispatcher: Late teens? Zimmerman: Uh, huh.Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20] 911 dispatcher: OK, just Let me know if he does anything, OK? Zimmerman: OK. 911 dispatcher: We’ve got them one the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. Zimmerman: OK.These *******s. They always get away. When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and make a left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39] 911 dispatcher:OK, so it’s on the left hand side from the clubhouse? Zimmerman:Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you'd make a left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left. Sh** He’s running. [2:08] 911 dispatcher:He’s running? Which way is he running? Zimmerman: (Sound that indicates perhaps Zimmerman is getting out of his car) Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14] 911 dispatcher:OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards? Zimmerman:The back entrance. [it sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing coons’ at 2:22] 911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24] Zimmerman: Yeah. [2:25] 911 dispatcher:OK.We don’t need you to do that. [2:26] Zimmerman: OK. [2:28] (wind noises heard) 911 dispatcher:Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34] Zimmerman:George. He ran. 911 dispatcher:Alright, George, what’s your last name? Zimmerman: Zimmerman. 911 dispatcher:What’s the phone number you’re calling from? Zimmerman: 407-435xxxx (wind noises die down) 911 dispatcher: Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? Zimmerman: Yeah. 911 dispatcher: Alright, where are you going to meet with them at? Zimmerman: Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then they go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10] 911 dispatcher: Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21] Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25] 911 dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area? Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah, I live here. 911 dispatcher: OK, what’s your apartment number? Zimmerman: It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40] 911 dispatcher: OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42] Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43] 911 dispatcher: Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at … Zimmerman: Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49] 911 dispatcher: OK, yeah that’s no problem. Zimmerman:My number … you’ve got it? 911 dispatcher: Yeah, I’ve got it. xxxxx? Zimmerman: Yeah, you got it. 911 dispatcher: OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02] Zimmerman:Thanks. 911 dispatcher: You’re welcome. Call ends 4:07
April 13, 201214 yr I'd say carrying a gun, a concealed weapon, that a person whom does this is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury, hence the concealed weapon for protection. They gonna use his own thinking against him. This stand your ground law was written by top lawmakers. A top lawmaker, such as a specially assigned prosector by the govenor, would know ho wto use this against Zimmerman. The man is toast. Not even close to true. How many are carrying in any one day in this country? Now, how many kill or do serious bodily injury in any one day? I don't know if he's toast. I just know it seems she picked an awfully hard level to prove. She either is posturing or she has something we don't know about.
April 13, 201214 yr I don't know what you do for a living, but the law is not in your future. Carrying a weapon in and of itself is not reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another. If so, every day I leave my house, I'm reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another. The fact that I haven't killed or done serious bodily injury to someone in the 5 plus years I've had my permit and carried disproves the reasonably certain aspect. If it was reasonably certain to happen, it would have happened at least once in the past 5 years, wouldn't it? Calling someone an @@@hole may be evidence of ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent but by itself I don't think it carries the burden. Hopely the Special has e mails or witnesses who will testify that Zimmerman has stated something to the effect "I'll get these guys whatever it takes" etc in the past. No way that ignoring the dispatcher in and of itself constitutes an indifference to human life. Aren't there conflicting opinions as to whether it was Zimmerman or Martin screaming? Not sure it is relevant to this element anyway; more relevant to the claim of self defense that Zimmerman will surely raise. if that is the case, then a pillow is a weapon. but nobody conceals a pillow because it has no stopping power or cannot cause enough injury
April 13, 201214 yr I finally read the transcript of Zimmerman's call to the police. I was rather surprised when I read it because a lot of people have posted on here that the dispatcher directed Zimmerman to stay in his truck and not to follow Martin. The dispatcher said no such thing. The dispatcher said, and I quote, "We don’t need you to do that". Such is a far, far cry than the dispatcher directing Zimmerman not to get out of his vehicle. I believe this is the official transcript of the call: Zimmerman: Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25] 911 dispatcher:OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman:cHe looks black. 911 dispatcher:cDid you see what he was wearing? Zimmerman:Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. Either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42] 911 dispatcher:He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK. Zimmerman:Now he’s just staring at me. [00:48] 911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111? Zimmerman:That’s the clubhouse. 911 dispatcher:He’s near the clubhouse right now? Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. And he’s a black male.[1:03] 911 dispatcher: OK How old would you say he is? Zimmerman: He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens. 911 dispatcher: Late teens? Zimmerman: Uh, huh.Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20] 911 dispatcher: OK, just Let me know if he does anything, OK? Zimmerman: OK. 911 dispatcher: We’ve got them one the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. Zimmerman: OK.These *******s. They always get away. When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and make a left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39] 911 dispatcher:OK, so it’s on the left hand side from the clubhouse? Zimmerman:Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you'd make a left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left. Sh** He’s running. [2:08] 911 dispatcher:He’s running? Which way is he running? Zimmerman: (Sound that indicates perhaps Zimmerman is getting out of his car) Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14] 911 dispatcher:OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards? Zimmerman:The back entrance. [it sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing coons’ at 2:22] 911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24] Zimmerman: Yeah. [2:25] 911 dispatcher:OK.We don’t need you to do that. [2:26] Zimmerman: OK. [2:28] (wind noises heard) 911 dispatcher:Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34] Zimmerman:George. He ran. 911 dispatcher:Alright, George, what’s your last name? Zimmerman: Zimmerman. 911 dispatcher:What’s the phone number you’re calling from? Zimmerman: 407-435xxxx (wind noises die down) 911 dispatcher: Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? Zimmerman: Yeah. 911 dispatcher: Alright, where are you going to meet with them at? Zimmerman: Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then they go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10] 911 dispatcher: Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21] Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25] 911 dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area? Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah, I live here. 911 dispatcher: OK, what’s your apartment number? Zimmerman: It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40] 911 dispatcher: OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42] Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43] 911 dispatcher: Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at … Zimmerman: Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49] 911 dispatcher: OK, yeah that’s no problem. Zimmerman:My number … you’ve got it? 911 dispatcher: Yeah, I’ve got it. xxxxx? Zimmerman: Yeah, you got it. 911 dispatcher: OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02] Zimmerman:Thanks. 911 dispatcher: You’re welcome. Call ends 4:07 Wanted to say good job on the post before this one. As for this one, after reading the transcript it actually does sound like George might not have known exactly where he was. It also sounds like Trayvon was acting suspicious. I know Trayvon was possibly just scared of George which would explain his suspicious behavior. I'm anxious to see more info as it is released. I hope it is released...
April 13, 201214 yr if that is the case, then a pillow is a weapon. but nobody conceals a pillow because it has no stopping power or cannot cause enough injury Huh?
April 13, 201214 yr I may have read that also. I assume the Special will offer evidence from a forensic expert that it was not Zimmerman screaming for help. If the defense offers evidence from it's forensic experts saying it was Zimmerman, the jury will have differing testimony on the issue. Which one does the jury believe? If they go with the prosecutor's expert, can the jury believe it beyond a reasonable doubt? Again, I'm hoping the Special has forensic evidence indicating that Zimmerman was not within a certain distance of Martin when he pulled the trigger (absence of gun powder residue, analysis of the blood splatter, etc); evidence indicating that Zimmerman was not on his back as claimed; some credible eye witness testimony; etc. Without such I don't see a 2nd degree murder conviction. Without such type of evidence, I think a jury would have a hard time determing beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmeran committed murder if Zimmerman's testimony goes along the lines of: "I walked up to Martin to ask him who he was and what he was doing in the neighborhood. Given the recent burglaries in the neighborhood maybe that was reasonable for me to do so; maybe it wasn't. When I did so I wasn't looking for trouble; I wasn't intending to try and arrest him; I wasn't looking to apprehend him. I just wanted to find out who he was. Had he simply told me his name and explained that he was staying at the houlse of his father's fiance in the neighborhood and was walking back from the convenient store, I'd have said thanks and asked him to be on the lookout for strangers because of the recent burglaries. But he didnt' do that. When I approached him and asked him who he was, he hit me and knocked me down. He started hitting me and I feared for my life. I felt that I had no choice but to shoot him to save my life. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't approached him at all, but that didn't give him the right to hit me, knock me down and start hitting my head against the ground. I feel extremely bad that I killed the young man, but at that moment I felt I had no choice but to pull the trigger to save my own life." Or even worse for the prosecution: "When I left my vehicle, I only did so to follow Mr. Martin. I had not intended to even talk to him. I was just going to follow him because I knew the police were on their way and I didn't want him to slip away before the police arrived. So I was following him. However, he evidently noticed I was following him becaue he pulled up his hood and started walking faster. Eventually he turned around and walked toward me and asked what I was doing following him. I explained that I was on the neighborhood watch, there have been multiple burglaries in the neighborhood, that I had seen him walking through the neighborhood and had called the police who were on the way to talk to him. Unfortunately, Mr. Martin became confrontational, then he hit me and knocked me down, got on top of me and starting hitting my head against the ground. I feared for my life and felt I had no choice but to shoot Mr. Martin. I feel extremely bad that I killed the young man, but at that moment I felt I had no choice but to pull the trigger to save my own life." Again, if the Special has solid evidence indicating such testimony would be inaccurate, she may be able to convince a jury beyond every reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder. I just haven't seen it yet (which doesn't not mean the Special does not have it). For those not familiar with "reasonable doubt", it is a very high burden that the Special must prove. I believe this is the current Florida standard instruction given to the jurors on reasonable doubt: "A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand, if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if, having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find the defendant not guilty because the doubt is reasonable. It is to the evidence introduced in this trial and to it alone, that you are to look for that proof. A reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the defendant may arise from the evidence, conflict in the evidence, or the lack of evidence ." (emphasis added) The scenarios you provide are both very plausible. I don't think that he planned on murdering Martin.
April 13, 201214 yr For someone in-tune with this legal stuff, how does this compare with the prosecution's attempt of a murder II charge to that of the Casey Anthony trial? Both of which are in Florida.
April 13, 201214 yr For someone in-tune with this legal stuff, how does this compare with the prosecution's attempt of a murder II charge to that of the Casey Anthony trial? Both of which are in Florida. I don't know that I'm qualified to answer this question, but based on my memory of the Casey Anthony trial they really didn't have a lot of evidence proving Casey Anthony killed her child did they? Seems I remember they had circumstantial evidence, but nothing proving she murdered her. In this case it's more of a question as to whether or not George had the right to kill Trayvon. We know he killed him, but was he justified in doing so? Apparently the prosecution thinks he wasn't, since they have charged him with murder.
May 8, 201214 yr Where is the outrage and comments from our elected leaders in Washington? Seems to be a teachable moment. Black Male Shoots Unarmed Hispanic, Remains Free, Media Mum - Daniel Adkins - Fox Nation
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