CincySportsFan Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 I guess this thread could've been posted in either the boys or the girls side, but since I've seen more of the girls side so far, I'll put it here. I know there were many that were upset/confused/concerned about the 6th region officials doing the 8th region tournament games. And, having seen many of the games in person, I can completely understand. So, my question is "why do regions trade officials"? Doing pro's and con's for the subject, I came up with these: PRO's: 1.) You get officials who are mostly (maybe even totally) oblivious to the teams/players/coaches and their habits/tendancies. They (the officials) can better come into the game as "unpartial" compared to officials who have called games for these teams all year. 2.) You get officials who are less likely to be intimidated by a coach, and be concerned about being "blacklisted" the following season. 3.) With the uncertainty of who may be advancing through the tournament, the scheduler doesn't have to worry about an official's "home" school advancing at any point in time, and thus creating a scheduling conflict down the road. 4.) The regional winner is going to have to play in front of officials at the state level that are from different regions, so they might as well get used to the concept now. CON's: 1.) The regular season does not prepare players/teams one bit for how things will be called in the postseason. While in an ideal world, a "foul is a foul, is a foul" would be true. But we all know it isn't. While certain regions may allow for a lot of hand checking out top, another region may not. Telling kids what was permissable during the previous 25 games is now suddenly not, is not right. You don't change the rules in the middle of the game. So from just a numbers game, there appears to be a lot more pro's than con's. But, considering that this is still a High School game...I'd think the focus should be kids...so I think the one "con" might outweigh the other four "pro's" put together, IMO. What say you? :idunno:
jumpball Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Didn't seem to make a huge difference in the 9th region games I saw. Seemed to be a few poor calls on both sides. Some tikky tack, some non calls for blatent stuff. Actually seemed a bit better than our 9th region refs. Kinda like the idea of being "more neutral", but I am not sure if it really matters.
StraightShooter Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Didn't seem to make a huge difference in the 9th region games I saw. Seemed to be a few poor calls on both sides. Some tikky tack, some non calls for blatent stuff. Actually seemed a bit better than our 9th region refs. Kinda like the idea of being "more neutral", but I am not sure if it really matters. :thumb:
Mr. Athletics Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 The list of pros and cons hits the nail on the head. The entire region votes on whether to stay in or go out. If the decision is made to go out, then the KHSAA makes the decision on which officiating group will come in. From what I hear, the officials do like going to another region to call the games. My guess is those teams that win will be for getting out of region officials and those that lose will want to stay in.
16th62nd Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 I guess this thread could've been posted in either the boys or the girls side, but since I've seen more of the girls side so far, I'll put it here. I know there were many that were upset/confused/concerned about the 6th region officials doing the 8th region tournament games. And, having seen many of the games in person, I can completely understand. So, my question is "why do regions trade officials"? Doing pro's and con's for the subject, I came up with these: PRO's: 1.) You get officials who are mostly (maybe even totally) oblivious to the teams/players/coaches and their habits/tendancies. They (the officials) can better come into the game as "unpartial" compared to officials who have called games for these teams all year. 2.) You get officials who are less likely to be intimidated by a coach, and be concerned about being "blacklisted" the following season. 3.) With the uncertainty of who may be advancing through the tournament, the scheduler doesn't have to worry about an official's "home" school advancing at any point in time, and thus creating a scheduling conflict down the road. 4.) The regional winner is going to have to play in front of officials at the state level that are from different regions, so they might as well get used to the concept now. CON's: 1.) The regular season does not prepare players/teams one bit for how things will be called in the postseason. While in an ideal world, a "foul is a foul, is a foul" would be true. But we all know it isn't. While certain regions may allow for a lot of hand checking out top, another region may not. Telling kids what was permissable during the previous 25 games is now suddenly not, is not right. You don't change the rules in the middle of the game. So from just a numbers game, there appears to be a lot more pro's than con's. But, considering that this is still a High School game...I'd think the focus should be kids...so I think the one "con" might outweigh the other four "pro's" put together, IMO. What say you? :idunno: To answer your question the BIGGEST reason officials trade regions is so that the officials and the assigning secretary don't have to worry about "scratches" during the regional tournament!
LieutenantDan Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 To answer your question the BIGGEST reason officials trade regions is so that the officials and the assigning secretary don't have to worry about "scratches" during the regional tournament! Very True. By the time you get through all the scratches, you get some refs calling championship level games that don't need to be there.
retropop Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 The purpose of high school athletics is to benefit the student-athletes, is it not? What is best for officials has absolutely no business entering into the equation, since they come and go as virtual independent contractors for every game that they agree to call. The coaches - they are big boys and girls who should not figure into the equation very much either, however they invest themselves significantly more into the student-athletes and their well being than the officials have. The real question is: "Are the student-athletes being best served by having outside officials?" Well, I'm sure that there are lots of folks whose opinions fall on both sides of the question, however mine falls on side of staying inside the region, as I believe that the players benefit better from it.
ColonelMike Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 The purpose of high school athletics is to benefit the student-athletes, is it not? What is best for officials has absolutely no business entering into the equation, since they come and go as virtual independent contractors for every game that they agree to call. The coaches - they are big boys and girls who should not figure into the equation very much either, however they invest themselves significantly more into the student-athletes and their well being than the officials have. The real question is: "Are the student-athletes being best served by having outside officials?" Well, I'm sure that there are lots of folks whose opinions fall on both sides of the question, however mine falls on side of staying inside the region, as I believe that the players benefit better from it. I think the kids benefit more from the out of region officials. Don't get me wrong; with the exception of the girls' final, I thought the girls' 8th was horribly officiated...but it was horribly officiated in an even-handed way. I saw no team get an advantage. We have some horribly officiated games done by 8th region officials, too. The kids are going to have to learn how to adjust to the officials; that's the way it is all year (all their games aren't "in-region") and in the Sweet 16. And I think the players benefit in the fact that the out-of-region officials are less likely to be watching for certain things the "in-region" officials may already be predisposed to look for. For example, watching out for a kid that they already expect to get into foul trouble, etc. These guys come in as blank slates - which is good news for the kids.
Big East Zebra Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 I think the kids benefit more from the out of region officials. Don't get me wrong; with the exception of the girls' final, I thought the girls' 8th was horribly officiated...but it was horribly officiated in an even-handed way. I saw no team get an advantage. We have some horribly officiated games done by 8th region officials, too. The kids are going to have to learn how to adjust to the officials; that's the way it is all year (all their games aren't "in-region") and in the Sweet 16. And I think the players benefit in the fact that the out-of-region officials are less likely to be watching for certain things the "in-region" officials may already be predisposed to look for. For example, watching out for a kid that they already expect to get into foul trouble, etc. These guys come in as blank slates - which is good news for the kids. :thumb:
madman Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 I think the kids benefit more from the out of region officials. Don't get me wrong; with the exception of the girls' final, I thought the girls' 8th was horribly officiated...but it was horribly officiated in an even-handed way. I saw no team get an advantage. We have some horribly officiated games done by 8th region officials, too. The kids are going to have to learn how to adjust to the officials; that's the way it is all year (all their games aren't "in-region") and in the Sweet 16. And I think the players benefit in the fact that the out-of-region officials are less likely to be watching for certain things the "in-region" officials may already be predisposed to look for. For example, watching out for a kid that they already expect to get into foul trouble, etc. These guys come in as blank slates - which is good news for the kids. Most good officials do their homework and do not come into games not knowing anything about the teams they are going to officiate. Officiating is like any other job, do your homework and be prepared.
CincySportsFan Posted March 8, 2010 Author Posted March 8, 2010 I guess I look at it this way...even assuming that these "new" officials call the game evenly for both teams in a game, the changes in the way they call a game could directly favor one team over another. For instance, a new crew that calls things much tighter than the in-region officials, will probably benefit a team that has a deeper bench. On the other hand, a new officiating crew that "let's them play" may hurt a finesse team that depends on penetration and getting to the free throw line. The bad thing that I see is that by the time you (as coach/player) figure out how the officials are going to call the game...it may be too late. If the in-region officials are "unbiased" enough to decide the districts, then why aren't they good enough for the regional tourney?
malachicrunch Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 I was less than impressed with the crew that did the Boys 9th final yesterday. Lot of hand checking, and jersey grabbing. Thats fine until they call a little bump out top, that had no bearing on the ball handler at all. I commented to my buddy, "they haven't called that all day". Another call I remember was a reaching foul called on Newport. Holmes player drove from top of key down left side of the lane. Newport players strips the ball right in front of ref who is standing on left sideline. Whistle blows and here comes the older gentleman with the reach call. Problem is he was on the back side and was in no position to make that call. Ref that was right in front of the play just shrugged his shoulders when the Newport bench questioned the call. I don't think that crew worked very well together.
ColonelMike Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 Most good officials do their homework and do not come into games not knowing anything about the teams they are going to officiate. Officiating is like any other job, do your homework and be prepared. I understand what you're saying, but that isn't really what I meant. I know that the officials "do their homework", but they still typically have not been in the games with these kids and have less in the way of preconceptions.
ColonelMike Posted March 8, 2010 Posted March 8, 2010 I guess I look at it this way...even assuming that these "new" officials call the game evenly for both teams in a game, the changes in the way they call a game could directly favor one team over another. For instance, a new crew that calls things much tighter than the in-region officials, will probably benefit a team that has a deeper bench. On the other hand, a new officiating crew that "let's them play" may hurt a finesse team that depends on penetration and getting to the free throw line. The bad thing that I see is that by the time you (as coach/player) figure out how the officials are going to call the game...it may be too late. If the in-region officials are "unbiased" enough to decide the districts, then why aren't they good enough for the regional tourney? I don't disagree with you Cincy - you're obviously 100% right in that the way a crew calls a game does have some benefit to a team, whether it's because the team has a deeper bench and the game's being called tight, etc.. But here's my thoughts: 1 - Some teams play "in-region" a lot; others very rarely. Some teams really can't say that they are "accustomed" to the in-region crews, so what's the difference? It's not like every 8th region team spent 90% of their season playing with 8th region refs... 2 - The region is much more critical than the district. Half the teams survive the district. It's one and done for all in the region and the stakes are huge. 3 - The coaches and players have to adjust all season to the refs. That's just part of the game.
CincySportsFan Posted March 8, 2010 Author Posted March 8, 2010 1 - Some teams play "in-region" a lot; others very rarely. Some teams really can't say that they are "accustomed" to the in-region crews, so what's the difference? It's not like every 8th region team spent 90% of their season playing with 8th region refs... 2 - The region is much more critical than the district. Half the teams survive the district. It's one and done for all in the region and the stakes are huge. 3 - The coaches and players have to adjust all season to the refs. That's just part of the game. I understand what you're saying, but just for giggles I went and looked up the eight girls teams who advanced to the 8th region tournament this past week. Counting regular season home games (which should have 8th region officials) as well as regular season away game at fellow 8th region schools (which again, should have 8th region refs), plus the 2 district games that everyone would've played in (again, with 8th region officials)...I came up with these percentages of games played with 8th region officials calling them: Carroll County 89% (24/27) Owen County 88% (23/26) Walton-Verona 79% (22/28) South Oldham 77% (20/26) Shelby County 68% (19/28) Anderson County 68% (17/25) Oldham County 67% (18/27) Simon Kenton 56% (15/27) Which averages out to 74% of their games being played with 8th region officials. To me, that's still significant exposure to those officials. And if, as you say, the region is much more critical than the districts, and certainly the regular season, then why would you want to change? I mean, if you are accustomed to officials keeping the hand checking in-check during the regular season, and you suddenly run into officials that are much more liberal in their allowance for it in the regional tourney, you don't suddenly get "accustomed" to it. And likewise, if you as a post defender have been allowed to use certain moves/maneuvers to establish position, and suddenly the officials are calling every little contact...what do you do? And to say that if your opponent is (or is not) allowed to do it, then you are too, really isn't a valid argument IMO. I understand that players/coaches have to adjust to how the officials call the game...but, IMO them finding out HOW it's going to be called when you're in the most critical games of the year, is not the time to do it. I would rather take my chances on the "known" than the "unknown".
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