October 22, 200817 yr "The welfare state is not really about the welfare of the masses. It is about the ego of the elites." Thomas Sowell Forced charity by government is not voluntary, therefore is not an example of Christ's love. It really is as simple as that. Conservative Christians give exponentially more to charitable causes than any other group on the face of the Earth, as has been pointed out in this forum time after tiresome time. Thank you. You said it so much more eloquently than I apparently have been able to do. :thumb:
October 22, 200817 yr Where is anyone "robbing the rich". It costs money to live in this society, to provide security, and infrastructure. Those that can afford, with the least amount of harm to them shoud pay it. Others should benefit from it. Wow... :eek: This explains a lot.
October 22, 200817 yr Where is the scripture (where is the beef or meat)? Matthew 25 The Parable of the Rich Young Ruler What is the greatest commandment - "Love God and Love Your Neighbor" The Parable of the Good Samaritan (who is my neighbor) Turn the other cheek Lover your enemy, bless those who curse you Luke 19 Most of the book of Amos
October 22, 200817 yr Author "The welfare state is not really about the welfare of the masses. It is about the ego of the elites." Thomas Sowell Forced charity by government is not voluntary, therefore is not an example of Christ's love. It really is as simple as that. Conservative Christians give exponentially more to charitable causes than any other group on the face of the Earth, as has been pointed out in this forum time after tiresome time. This is the closest defense to the position I've seen, but it still doesn't answer why stopping gay marriage and abortion is more important that electing officials that are trying to help the poor. I am extremely conservative and believe in the free market idea, but I refuse to believe that either party has a complete monopoly on Christian values and nothing that has been said here has changed my mind about that. The Religious Right spends all their energy harping on the side Conservatives got right and just keep pretending the liberal side of helping the poor is irrelevant.
October 22, 200817 yr I have said it before and I will surely say it again- the day that I became a conservative was the day that I began to believe that the free market was the best thing for the poor. I think welfare and big government keeps the poor in poverty, for a variety of reasons It's very hard for people on welfare to escape poverty. However, without welfare, would they be able to survive?
October 22, 200817 yr This was my thought in the thread asking about Obama and no one seemed to really want to answer it. Why are most Conservative Christian's overly obsessed with things like abortion and gay marriage at the expense of things like helping the poor. One of the biggest things we as Christians can do is help those on this earth. In Mathew 25 Jesus said "how you treat the least of these is how you treat me." It just seems to me it is for God to judge individuals on their homosexuality or abortions. But it is the responsibility of us Christians to help those who can't help themselves. Love and service to me should be the main focus of Christians not judgment. Remember Jesus served others around him and hung with some who were considered the worst of the worst as far as sinners go of the day. But he loved them just same and did his best to serve them and better their condition. Why should we be so quick to judge others, that is for God. However, what is for us is to serve others and help the helpless. I for one completely reject your premise. I don't believe that most conservative Christians obsess over abortion and gay marriage, particularly at the expense of helping the poor.
October 22, 200817 yr Matthew 25 The Parable of the Rich Young Ruler What is the greatest commandment - "Love God and Love Your Neighbor" The Parable of the Good Samaritan (who is my neighbor) Turn the other cheek Lover your enemy, bless those who curse you Luke 19 Most of the book of Amos Standing against abortion and homosexuality does not contradict any of those passages, but it does harmonize with them. Why do you think that Democrats wrote the book on love and compassion? True love wants people to put away things that will eventually destroy them. The Democrats don't love children anymore than anyone else, and a great majority(not all), sure don't love the baby in the womb. Also, I deal with a lot of poor people and none of them go without health care.
October 22, 200817 yr It's very hard for people on welfare to escape poverty. However, without welfare, would they be able to survive? Absolutely, IMO. Less government waste in general would bog down our economy less. More economic growth and therefore jobs as well. Furthermore, the mentality that large welfare systems (especially ones that actually discourage work because of lost tax credits with incremental income and such) create is destructive. It does not cause an urgency to find and put time into a good job. It creates the opposite. FWIW, I am not all opposed to basic income- which is essentially a tax credit on income earned up to the poverty level, with the only requirement being citizen. No minimum wage or welfare have to be attached with it (to offset the costs and economic burden) but I think it is a much more efficient system.
October 22, 200817 yr This is the closest defense to the position I've seen, but it still doesn't answer why stopping gay marriage and abortion is more important that electing officials that are trying to help the poor. I am extremely conservative and believe in the free market idea, but I refuse to believe that either party has a complete monopoly on Christian values and nothing that has been said here has changed my mind about that. The Religious Right spends all their energy harping on the side Conservatives got right and just keep pretending the liberal side of helping the poor is irrelevant. Let me add then, that most conservative Christians interpret scripture differently. Liberals constantly harp on the "judge not lest you be judged" scripture and ignore the multitude of lessons that we are to assist our brothers and sisters in leading them away from sin. Liberals also oft-quote the greatest commandment of "love thy neighbor as thyself," and ignore the Great Commission, which is "go ye thereforth into the world" and spread the Word. Part of the Word is God's clear and unequivocal teaching that homosexual behavior, promiscuous behavior, adulterous behavior, divorce, etc. are sins and abominations to God. What liberals don't like is the tone in which that message is often presented, and I agree with them. But that does not mean that we are called to sit back and watch others (particularly those who profess to be Christians) sin time and time again, trusting that their behavior is regulated by the Lord and the Lord only. Matthew 18 clealry and unequivocally tells us that we are called to go to our brothers with whom we have a problem and address them, if they will not repent then we are bring the matter to the elders to address, and if they continue not to repent they are to be expelled from the Church. It is not indirect, it is not look the other way, it is not hope that God intercedes, it is go and do it yourself, face-to-face, tell them that are sinning in a spirit of kindness and help them to sin no more. "Discipline" comes from the same root word that means "to teach." With that all said, conservative Christians are energized, politically, by what they perceive to be assaults upon God's institution of marriage, and that includes the homosexual agenda. While we are called to address those who would attack those institutions in a spirit of kindness, that does not mean we are anywhere called to roll over and be saps and let those agendas take hold whenever and whereever they like.
October 22, 200817 yr Let me add then, that most conservative Christians interpret scripture differently. Liberals constantly harp on the "judge not lest you be judged" scripture and ignore the multitude of lessons that we are to assist our brothers and sisters in leading them away from sin. Liberals also oft-quote the greatest commandment of "love thy neighbor as thyself," and ignore the Great Commission, which is "go ye thereforth into the world" and spread the Word. Part of the Word is God's clear and unequivocal teaching that homosexual behavior, promiscuous behavior, adulterous behavior, divorce, etc. are sins and abominations to God. What liberals don't like is the tone in which that message is often presented, and I agree with them. But that does not mean that we are called to sit back and watch others (particularly those who profess to be Christians) sin time and time again, trusting that their behavior is regulated by the Lord and the Lord only. Matthew 18 clealry and unequivocally tells us that we are called to go to our brothers with whom we have a problem and address them, if they will not repent then we are bring the matter to the elders to address, and if they continue not to repent they are to be expelled from the Church. It is not indirect, it is not look the other way, it is not hope that God intercedes, it is go and do it yourself, face-to-face, tell them that are sinning in a spirit of kindness and help them to sin no more. "Discipline" comes from the same root word that means "to teach." With that all said, conservative Christians are energized, politically, by what they perceive to be assaults upon God's institution of marriage, and that includes the homosexual agenda. While we are called to address those who would attack those institutions in a spirit of kindness, that does not mean we are anywhere called to roll over and be saps and let those agendas take hold whenever and whereever they like. The bolded paragraph is a good one and I think you hit the nail on the head with the word "tone." I'm reminded that in the very chapter you cite this teaching is immediately followed with the forgiveness parable of the Steward who is forgiven a debt of billions but refuses to forgive the one who owes him $20. The understanding that we have all been forgiven the same impossible debt will go a long way to changing the tone in the message. I've always criticized the SBC (what else is new :lol:) when they dropped the ball on the "partner's health care" and gay issues in the early 90's. IF they had invested in ministries that deliberately reached to the AIDS populations in some of our major cities and practiced preaching the Word by ministry they could have gone a long way to advancing the kingdom. Instead they took the easier route of adopting resolutions and promoting boycotts.
October 22, 200817 yr I most definitely don't expect them to be for it, I just feel there are more important issues we as Christians should be focusing on. Other than murder of children? Are you serious? But not all professed Christians are pro-life. Obama not only is for abortion, in fact, ... FROM ROBERT GEORGE, PROFESSOR AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY. He has promised that "the first thing I'd do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act" (known as FOCA). This proposed legislation would create a federally guaranteed "fundamental right" to abortion through all nine months of pregnancy, including, as Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia has noted in a statement condemning the proposed Act, "a right to abort a fully developed child in the final weeks for undefined 'health' reasons." In essence, FOCA would abolish virtually every existing state and federal limitation on abortion, including parental consent and notification laws for minors, state and federal funding restrictions on abortion, and conscience protections for pro-life citizens working in the health-care industry-protections against being forced to participate in the practice of abortion or else lose their jobs. The pro-abortion National Organization for Women has proclaimed with approval that FOCA would "sweep away hundreds of anti-abortion laws [and] policies." With a candidate who is the most pro-abortion candidate for the presidency in US history, how can those who believe that an unborn baby has a right to life NOT be concerned about this issue in an election? Let me put it this way. If you thought you had a candidate that supported a parent's right to end the life of their children before age 3, would you think that was a concern? Well, since conservative Christians believe that an unborn baby IS a human, ... they have this same concern for the innocent children never given a chance at life. Certainly there are other issues at stake which are vitally important, but the life of a child should be paramount among our concerns.
October 22, 200817 yr It's very hard for people on welfare to escape poverty. However, without welfare, would they be able to survive? How did anyone survive before welfare? Through the charity of others. But now that it is a government right, too many people are abusing it. It needs to be overhauled. Not eliminated, as I understand there are tons of legitimate persons who need assistance. But there are too many, and I see them everyday, who live off the 'draw' and teach their children how to get 'on the draw'. Many have never worked a day in their life and have nothing wrong with them besides a terminal case of being too lazy to support themselves.
October 22, 200817 yr :thumb: Especially since Conservatives give more to Charity than Liberals do while Liberals make more money. Please prove that.
October 22, 200817 yr Please prove that. Here you go. George Will article, describing research published and performed by Syracuse University. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html
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