Wow! In this country, we have been beaten over the head by separation of church and state.

 

So, you are saying this must be a Christian government if Jesus called it to take care of those living in poverty?

 

Nope. I am saying that I will support policies that i believe to be in the Christian tradition of taking care of the poor.

 

The government is a reflection of the people. We see that with the mess we are in right now. People are greedy and do not understand sacrifice, therefore the government is greedy and does not understand sacrifice. If we were to be less greedy and worry more about the least of these we would have no problem setting up a system of health care that covers everybody. Regardless of what little it might cost me personally.

Nope. I am saying that I will support policies that i believe to be in the Christian tradition of taking care of the poor.

 

The government is a reflection of the people. We see that with the mess we are in right now. People are greedy and do not understand sacrifice, therefore the government is greedy and does not understand sacrifice. If we were to be less greedy and worry more about the least of these we would have no problem setting up a system of health care that covers everybody. Regardless of what little it might cost me personally.

We are also hammered by hypocrites. IMO Obama is less concerned with the actual needs of the poor than in the votes and power they represent for him. He is promising sunshine and roses, but will actually deliver more of the same policies and practices that have kept the poor in this country poor... perhaps in even greater quantities. You said it yourself, in regard to church handouts.

 

Government handouts are no different. As long as a poor person's vote counts the same as the vote of those actually paying the bills, politicians will have no incentive to actually reduce the numbers of this powerful and easy to persuade voter base. If anything, they will do what they can to increase the numbers of the poor. (This is not a slam against the poor, but a definite slam against greedy, powerhungry self-serving politicians.)

 

I am in no way against the poor, and especially those incapable of doing for themselves. BUT, you would have to put me in the camp of those prefering to provide "Fishing Lessons" rather than merely handing out "Fish" to those capable of fishing for themselves.

We are also hammered by hypocrites. IMO Obama is less concerned with the actual needs of the poor than in the votes and power they represent for him. He is promising sunshine and roses, but will actually deliver more of the same policies and practices that have kept the poor in this country poor... perhaps in even greater quantities. You said it yourself, in regard to church handouts.

 

Government handouts are no different. As long as a poor person's vote counts the same as the vote of those actually paying the bills, politicians will have no incentive to actually reduce the numbers of this powerful and easy to persuade voter base. If anything, they will do what they can to increase the numbers of the poor. (This is not a slam against the poor, but a definite slam against greedy, powerhungry self-serving politicians.)

 

I am in no way against the poor, and especially those incapable of doing for themselves. BUT, you would have to put me in the camp of those prefering to provide "Fishing Lessons" rather than merely handing out "Fish" to those capable of fishing for themselves.

 

 

And what fishing lessons have you taught over the years.

And what fishing lessons have you taught over the years.

What a condescending post.

 

In my faith, it is the pharasees who were condemned for boasting of their greater spirituality. I do not intend to fall for that trap.

 

Suffice it to say, I do what I can, and the more I do, the more I realize I should be doing and want to be doing. What I do is between God and me. I certainly don't do it for the purpose of impressing other people. :thumb:

What a condescending post.

 

In my faith, it is the pharasees who were condemned for boasting of their greater spirituality. I do not intend to fall for that trap.

 

Suffice it to say, I do what I can, and the more I do, the more I realize I should be doing and want to be doing. What I do is between God and me. I certainly don't do it for the purpose of impressing other people. :thumb:

 

You took it as condescending but it was not intended that way by any means . . . it was meant to point out that we pay a lot of lip service to things like that and rarely are we working to CHANGE THE CIRCUMSTANCES. Our work is often focused on the system and not the cause. My apologies if it was taken any other way.

 

I find the bolded very interesting . . . Service to God is between you and God, but sins must be publicly condemned. Why are my sins not simply between me and God to be dealth with with me and God.

 

If it is is essential to have the government make the sin of abortion illegal, why is it not essential to have the sin of greed made illegal?

You took it as condescending but it was not intended that way by any means . . . it was meant to point out that we pay a lot of lip service to things like that and rarely are we working to CHANGE THE CIRCUMSTANCES. Our work is often focused on the system and not the cause. My apologies if it was taken any other way.

 

I find the bolded very interesting . . . Service to God is between you and God, but sins must be publicly condemned. Why are my sins not simply between me and God to be dealth with with me and God.

 

If it is is essential to have the government make the sin of abortion illegal, why is it not essential to have the sin of greed made illegal?

If you know that what the Pharisees did was wrong, why as someone who proclaims himself to be a Christian would you tempt another Christian to commit the same sin of self-aggrandizement? Even now I am tempted to enumerate the things I do to change the circumstances… as if that might help validate my point.

 

As far as talking about my service or my sins, I would have a much easier time talking to you about my sins than my service. Talking about my service would be to promote myself, whereas talking about my sins and the fact that they are forgiven is to boast of God’s goodness and grace. I could do that all day. Not just because my sins are that numerous, but because God is more than that worthy of praise.

 

I have yet to condemn any specific person for their sins. Thankfully, it is not my job to judge individuals. I am however called upon to exercise good judgment in understanding what is sinful, doing my best to avoid it and encouraging others to avoid it too.

If you know that what the Pharisees did was wrong, why as someone who proclaims himself to be a Christian would you tempt another Christian to commit the same sin of self-aggrandizement? Even now I am tempted to enumerate the things I do to change the circumstances… as if that might help validate my point.

 

As far as talking about my service or my sins, I would have a much easier time talking to you about my sins than my service. Talking about my service would be to promote myself, whereas talking about my sins and the fact that they are forgiven is to boast of God’s goodness and grace. I could do that all day. Not just because my sins are that numerous, but because God is more than that worthy of praise.

 

I have yet to condemn any specific person for their sins. Thankfully, it is not my job to judge individuals. I am however called upon to exercise good judgment in understanding what is sinful, doing my best to avoid it and encouraging others to avoid it too.

 

Fastbreak, this isn't about you personally or it is not intended to be. I agree that service should be private and between you and God, even though I have listed my stuff on here before b/c I had been called out for not being "christian enough" or not a true christian.

 

However, when someone makes the statement that their service should be between them and God and I agree with that statement, I find it ironic that conservative christians won't to condemn someone else's sin like homosexuality. If it is actually a sin, and I don't believe it is, why is it not between the person and God? Why does it have to be made illegal?? That is a conservative Christian publicly condemning SOMEONE ELSE"S sin.

Fastbreak, this isn't about you personally or it is not intended to be. I agree that service should be private and between you and God, even though I have listed my stuff on here before b/c I had been called out for not being "christian enough" or not a true christian.

 

However, when someone makes the statement that their service should be between them and God and I agree with that statement, I find it ironic that conservative christians won't to condemn someone else's sin like homosexuality. If it is actually a sin, and I don't believe it is, why is it not between the person and God? Why does it have to be made illegal?? That is a conservative Christian publicly condemning SOMEONE ELSE"S sin.

 

One obvious reason that comes to mind is our mission to bring people to Christ. A person who is sinless has no need for Him.

 

Our job as Christians is to make people aware that there is an absolute truth, an absolute right and wrong, where we as human beings stand with God, what He did to "bridge the gap" created by sin, and bring them to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

If a person is never convicted of sin, then they have no reason to turn to Christ. There is a difference in stating the truth and judging/condemning. We should do the first, but its not our job to the do the second. There are times when people cross the line and there are times when people wrongly accuse them of doing so because they don't deem it politically correct.

 

One thing we certainly cannot afford to do is quit proclaiming the truth in honor of political correctness.

One obvious reason that comes to mind is our mission to bring people to Christ. A person who is sinless has no need for Him.

 

Our job as Christians is to make people aware that there is an absolute truth, an absolute right and wrong, where we as human beings stand with God, what He did to "bridge the gap" created by sin, and bring them to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

If a person is never convicted of sin, then they have no reason to turn to Christ. There is a difference in stating the truth and judging/condemning. We should do the first, but its not our job to the do the second. There are times when people cross the line and there are times when people wrongly accuse them of doing so because they don't deem it politically correct.

 

One thing we certainly cannot afford to do is quit proclaiming the truth in honor of political correctness.

 

in response to each bolded statement

 

1. I wholeheartedly disagree. Our job as Christians is to let people know that God loves them and that I love them.

 

2. Only the Holy Spirit can "convict" someone of their sin

 

3. Making something ILLEGAL is CONDEMNING it.

 

4. This has nothing to do with political correctness it has to do with showing love vs outlawing what you see as a sin.

 

 

Also, and finally,

I will ask again where are the proposed laws outlawing Greed? Where are the proposed laws outlawing Gluttony? Where are the proposed laws outlawing the destruction of God's planet? Why so much emphasis on homosexuality. Greed does more to hurt this country than homosexuality does. Much more.

in response to each bolded statement

 

1. I wholeheartedly disagree. Our job as Christians is to let people know that God loves them and that I love them.

 

2. Only the Holy Spirit can "convict" someone of their sin

 

3. Making something ILLEGAL is CONDEMNING it.

 

4. This has nothing to do with political correctness it has to do with showing love vs outlawing what you see as a sin.

 

 

Also, and finally,

I will ask again where are the proposed laws outlawing Greed? Where are the proposed laws outlawing Gluttony? Where are the proposed laws outlawing the destruction of God's planet? Why so much emphasis on homosexuality. Greed does more to hurt this country than homosexuality does. Much more.

 

I'm merely addressing the assertion that we shouldn't "call out" specific sins.

 

1. I would agree, if I had stopped the sentence there. Why didn't you bold the whole sentence?

 

2. I agree. However, God uses many different means to accomplish this purpose and I certainly believe His people speaking the truth about sin is one of those ways.

 

3. Not sure how to answer this one...I don't agree with the amount of energy and attention that "Christians" put on a "gay marriage ban" or "getting the ten commandments" back on the wall, while neglecting other areas that I would deem more important. Apart from Christ, those things are meaningless from a Christian perspective. If we're not going to fight to take it all the way and get the name of Christ back "on the wall" so to speak, then I'm not sure its worth the effort. I would view abortion differently, because that is murder, IMO, and the finality of that lends itself to legislation. Abortion, IMO, goes beyond a religious issue. I don't care if you're religious or not, its murder.

 

4. Love doesn't always coddle people and tell them they're right. Sometimes love points out that a person is on the wrong path for their own good. And it is often very much about political correctness.

 

Jesus Christ said, "The truth shall make you free."

 

And, again, in John 17:17, when praying to God, Jesus says, "Sanctify by your truth. Your word is truth."

 

There is an absolute truth and part of our job as Christians is to proclaim it.

in response to each bolded statement

 

1. I wholeheartedly disagree. Our job as Christians is to let people know that God loves them and that I love them.

 

2. Only the Holy Spirit can "convict" someone of their sin

 

3. Making something ILLEGAL is CONDEMNING it.

 

4. This has nothing to do with political correctness it has to do with showing love vs outlawing what you see as a sin.

 

 

Also, and finally,

I will ask again where are the proposed laws outlawing Greed? Where are the proposed laws outlawing Gluttony? Where are the proposed laws outlawing the destruction of God's planet? Why so much emphasis on homosexuality. Greed does more to hurt this country than homosexuality does. Much more.

We have many laws that punish those who allow their greed to lead them to steal or defraud or otherwise con people out of their possessions. Do I understand that you would be in favor of lifting all laws against perjury, murder, involuntary manslaughter, theft, public intoxication, etc. so we’re not guilty of “condemning” someone?

We have many laws that punish those who allow their greed to lead them to steal or defraud or otherwise con people out of their possessions. Do I understand that you would be in favor of lifting all laws against perjury, murder, involuntary manslaughter, theft, public intoxication, etc. so we’re not guilty of “condemning” someone?

 

Do you honestly think that we would not have those laws without christianity?

 

As to the first part of your post, we punish the results of greed, the amassing of great wealth is honored in the society. Greed is honored. That is what capitalism is all about. Greed.

Do you honestly think that we would not have those laws without christianity?

 

As to the first part of your post, we punish the results of greed, the amassing of great wealth is honored in the society. Greed is honored. That is what capitalism is all about. Greed.

First of all, the amassing of great wealth is honored because of the work and risk that is put into it. Also, you don't amass great wealth without providing a good to society.

 

Secondly, I'd be a socialist if I thought it had a shot of working. Unfortunately, it doesn't. In the real world, socialism spreads more misery than joy. It winds up hurting the people.

Do you honestly think that we would not have those laws without christianity?

 

As to the first part of your post, we punish the results of greed, the amassing of great wealth is honored in the society. Greed is honored. That is what capitalism is all about. Greed.

Capitalism has been the engine of freedom and liberty for over 230 years, and it worked just fine until a bunch of politicians got their thumbs in the pie and started doling out favors, buying votes with our money. If you think this will get any better under BO you're beyond attempting to reason with.

 

For someone seemingly so against legislating morality, you voting for BO to ensure redistribution of "wealth" and "fairness" is a swan dive into the deep end of government allocated morality.

 

Freedom is a messy thing, but it is freedom. :thumb:

Capitalism has been the engine of freedom and liberty for over 230 years, and it worked just fine until a bunch of politicians got their thumbs in the pie and started doling out favors, buying votes with our money. If you think this will get any better under BO you're beyond attempting to reason with.

 

For someone seemingly so against legislating morality, you voting for BO to ensure redistribution of "wealth" and "fairness" is a swan dive into the deep end of government allocated morality.

 

Freedom is a messy thing, but it is freedom. :thumb:

 

I agree 110% :thumb: