Nope, but they would be much better, immediately. Then if the kids and the community were to buy in, and do everything that our boys currently do. Yes, they would compete with Trinity, and X right now. Remember Seneca beat us in 2003, and we won state that year.

 

So does the community, kids and coaches not buy into basketball?

Since this is a numbers thread lets focus on numbers.

 

Football is a numbers game - up to a point. Then it because the other factors.

 

According to the NFL it takes 45 players on an active roster...

 

Good post, but, another factor involved with T and X is geographics. It's in the largest metropolitan area in Ky and has no geographic restrictions, which are placed on most other schools. Let's take Owensboro for example. If they took the very best players from Daviess, Apollo, Senior and Catholic and put them all on 1 team, they would still be dealing with a geographic disadvantage of about 7 to 1 compared to the Louisville area. And then, which one would get all these premier athletes. I'm sure there would be alot of rumblings from the other schools if they weren't the one these kids attended and would somehow find a way to veto it. Thats the problem with public schools vs private schools. Secondly, having 25 solid players in the top 2 classes can make a team competitive, but, when you can go 3 deep at every position on both sides of the ball without much falloff, it's a big difference. These teams with 45-50 kids still get hurt alot more when 3-4 kids go down with injuries than one with 120. It's just a fact. Add that to the 7-1 geographic advantage, as well as the non restriction of where they live, it is alot bigger than most on here want to admit..

So does the community, kids and coaches not buy into basketball?

 

It is not something that we were born with, like football. We are trying to get there with basketball.

Good post, but, another factor involved with T and X is geographics. It's in the largest metropolitan area in Ky and has no geographic restrictions, which are placed on most other schools. Let's take Owensboro for example. If they took the very best players from Daviess, Apollo, Senior and Catholic and put them all on 1 team, they would still be dealing with a geographic disadvantage of about 7 to 1 compared to the Louisville area. And then, which one would get all these premier athletes. I'm sure there would be alot of rumblings from the other schools if they weren't the one these kids attended and would somehow find a way to veto it. Thats the problem with public schools vs private schools. Secondly, having 25 solid players in the top 2 classes can make a team competitive, but, when you can go 3 deep at every position on both sides of the ball without much falloff, it's a big difference. These teams with 45-50 kids still get hurt alot more when 3-4 kids go down with injuries than one with 120. It's just a fact. Add that to the 7-1 geographic advantage, as well as the non restriction of where they live, it is alot bigger than most on here want to admit..

 

 

Thanks for complement. I think a given is that the potential for good football teams is definitely increased with the larger pools of players. The first pool is the enrollment at the school and as you point out the next pool is the community at large. But given this the main offset to T and X should be the Jefferson County public schools since they do not have geographic restrictions in Jefferson County. Except for Male and Manual no one else serious challenges the powers.

 

Unfortunately, as someone who went through the days of original forced bussing mess in the 1970s and early 80s my view is that that event severely weakened the public schools in Jefferson and also resulted in the strengthening of T and X as powers. While the original, gut wrenching event has changed to something much more positive, the setbacks to Louisville public schools in terms of football are still felt. It seems that Central (where I attended as a freshman) is recoverying well under the new enrollment methodologies. This was a school with strong community support prior to bussing and then in 1975 80% of their students were sent out to the suburbs and they had different groups of students in each class each year. Obviously a strong football program could not be built around this model of 'enrollment'.

 

As for the Lexington-based schools with high enrollment (HC, PLD) - HC is a contender and will likely continue to challenge. PLD represents a good place to better understand why a school does not have a more competative team even when they have 'the numbers'. PLD enjoys strong community support, large enrollment and good facilities. On paper, they have all the factors to compete but they have struggled.

 

As I went through the number the numbers I do believe that 6A has numbers issue that is a much larger factor than the other classes. To be competative with the top powers you need a good base of enrollment at least. The bottom 1/3rd to 1/2 of 6A seems to have a distinct disadvantage in numbers to compete with the top level.

 

As you can tell I like to factual data for analysis, especially of emotional issues. I would be good if KHSAA would do some this analysis and define the issues and challenges better so that the programs would be more competative. Hopefully by addressing the weaknesses and not punishing the strengths. By simply splitting the classes equally without taking into consideration the vast difference in enrollment spreads vs. the other 5 classes KHSAA only further inflamed the issue of the power schools in 6A.

 

Come on, KHSAA do some more homework using your own numbers and come up with a better structure.

Unfortunately, as someone who went through the days of original forced bussing mess in the 1970s and early 80s my view is that that event severely weakened the public schools in Jefferson and also resulted in the strengthening of T and X as powers. While the original, gut wrenching event has changed to something much more positive, the setbacks to Louisville public schools in terms of football are still felt. It seems that Central (where I attended as a freshman) is recoverying well under the new enrollment methodologies. This was a school with strong community support prior to bussing and then in 1975 80% of their students were sent out to the suburbs and they had different groups of students in each class each year. Obviously a strong football program could not be built around this model of 'enrollment'.

 

A very good post and one aspect that many people discount. Before bussing several public schools had male enrollments higher then both Trinity and X, yet Trinity and X still won. After bussing when 4 high schools were closed (Durrett, Thomas Jefferson, Stuart and Westport) at least one school, Southern, saw a windfall and for a few years became a very strong football program. They defeated X 3 years in a row during the regualr season and beat Trinity one year to win the Jefferson County championship and play for the state championship. Then the powers that be decided to re-district and Southern hasn't been the same since. As far as I'm concerned Jefferson County has to many high schools.

A very good post and one aspect that many people discount. Before bussing several public schools had male enrollments higher then both Trinity and X, yet Trinity and X still won. After bussing when 4 high schools were closed (Durrett, Thomas Jefferson, Stuart and Westport) at least one school, Southern, saw a windfall and for a few years became a very strong football program. They defeated X 3 years in a row during the regualr season and beat Trinity one year to win the Jefferson County championship and play for the state championship. Then the powers that be decided to re-district and Southern hasn't been the same since. As far as I'm concerned Jefferson County has to many high schools.

 

Outside of some specialty schools there really is little to no reason why the schools in Lousiville shouldn't all be 6A enrollment-wise. Actually if the county wanted to be really good about it they could use some of the land freed up by closing a school or two to create state of the art athletic facilties that could be useable by more than one school. They could also sell some of the real-estate they own too. Unless they are hanging on to some of these simply to be cautious in the event of a sudden population influx in the area.

A very good post and one aspect that many people discount. Before bussing several public schools had male enrollments higher then both Trinity and X, yet Trinity and X still won. After bussing when 4 high schools were closed (Durrett, Thomas Jefferson, Stuart and Westport) at least one school, Southern, saw a windfall and for a few years became a very strong football program. They defeated X 3 years in a row during the regualr season and beat Trinity one year to win the Jefferson County championship and play for the state championship. Then the powers that be decided to re-district and Southern hasn't been the same since. As far as I'm concerned Jefferson County has to many high schools.

Here's a different angle on your point. While Oldham County and Boone County are building schools, Trinity and X have stayed in a growth pattern while Desales and Holy Cross have had reduced attendence while Male has changed their policy on admissions to only allow Traditional program kids over the last 5 years. So the available Catholic school kid pool has grown plus the public school including Oldham County pool has grown that will consider T or X.

 

So let's take a talented kid who goes to St Rita on Preston highway in Okolona across from Southern high School. Previously, Southern was a power and he could of gone there but currently it's not his first choice. He wasn't in the the traditional program so Male is out. His parents are not wealthy so he applies to X and Trinity and receives reduced tuition offer. So his choice is Manual or T or X. Now his best friend goes to TT Knight, a public school off Blue Lick road in the neighborhood. They talk, the 2nd kid takes the test at T or X and gets a reduced scholarship offer based on financial need. Now there's two kids going to T or X or Manual.

 

How do you even up 6A? Move Desales or Holy Cross to the east end of Louisville and build a third power to start eroding the pool. Fern Creek, J-Town, Seneca, Southern, and Oldham CounT has 1400 students X has 1400 students. Divide 2800 by 3 and now the numbers become 933 at each school. Coach Maddox from Trinity used to coach at J-Town and he used the stat that 3000 kids from J-towns district attend other schools. If a school could start getting those kids, then the field evens out.

But as it stands right now, as long as Fern Creek, J-Town, Seneca, Southern are losing kids in their area to T and X, the titles will continue.

I don't disagree, and I really like that you used St. Rita, TT Knight and Southern as examples because I attended all of those schools.

 

The public schools IMVHO need to do something to make themselves more attractive to students and parents so that kids will WANT to go there, not HAVE to go there. That's one huge thing that Male and Manual have going for them now as do some other schools to a lesser extent.

 

But the bottom line is that I still think that Jefferson County has to many public high schools.

But as it stands right now, as long as Fern Creek, J-Town, Seneca, Southern are losing kids in their area to T and X, the titles will continue.

 

Why are Fern Creek, J-Town, Seneca, Southern losing kids in their area to T and X?

HHS posters-I don't mean to stir anything up here because I'm also a firm believer that numbers aren't everything but feel the need to come to the side of my 502 brethren. That being said, if numbers really aren't the case then maybe HHS should step up to 6A and we really could settle the title chase

I do also think our numbers play a big role in our success. But, everyone has to run sprints in practice, everyone has to lift in the off season, etc. True having more kids helps in terms of in-game conditioning, but I'm sure most of you all do most of the same things in practice that we do and our talent pool should be a moot point if preparation and coaching were up to our level, with all due respect. I think Coach N is a great coach, but to say that he is as good as Beatty is a little farcical when you look at the past few years and the track records. Also, the feeder programs aren't largely county-wide, but I also know that the Catholic ones dont start in 3rd grade, except for flag football and if we're teaching kids the split 6 and jet sweep in 3rd grade, we all need to take a look at our lives and wonder what went wrong. Those are meant as recreation, and not a training program for young Rocks and Tigers. True, from middle school on there is a little more intense training, but as earlier stated optimist leagues garner some similar competition level and I think should be cut out of this conversation. My biggest problem with this whole thing is that it seems like you guys (RRR and 02) are upset because we have a numbers disadvantage and a strong farm club system. But what is wrong with having all the advantages? Not to say that we earned them or other factors didnt contribute to our momentary monopoly on the rest of the class, but it's like complaining about a guy marrying a supermodel and the next day winning the lottery. I wont call it luck, but if this is the hand we're holding, why punish us for having it? Last analogy: If a kid can bench 305 and run a 4.3 40, should be disallowed from playing cause he's big and strong? I understand where you're coming from but like someone already said we're not going to change the way we do things, but I think we'd all be glad to have a little company at the top

Did privates schools cause this? (Refering to the exodus of students into the surrounding counties and making Louisville public schools smaller these days)

 

Private schools have suffered as well. Flaget closed in the mid 70's because of the exodus out of the west end, with trinity benefiting the most when they closed. In fact, since I've been born, eerything has been movng east, following the herds. The south end of Louisville has also lost a lot of students.

Good post, but, another factor involved with T and X is geographics. It's in the largest metropolitan area in Ky and has no geographic restrictions, which are placed on most other schools. Let's take Owensboro for example. If they took the very best players from Daviess, Apollo, Senior and Catholic and put them all on 1 team, they would still be dealing with a geographic disadvantage of about 7 to 1 compared to the Louisville area. And then, which one would get all these premier athletes. I'm sure there would be alot of rumblings from the other schools if they weren't the one these kids attended and would somehow find a way to veto it. Thats the problem with public schools vs private schools. Secondly, having 25 solid players in the top 2 classes can make a team competitive, but, when you can go 3 deep at every position on both sides of the ball without much falloff, it's a big difference. These teams with 45-50 kids still get hurt alot more when 3-4 kids go down with injuries than one with 120. It's just a fact. Add that to the 7-1 geographic advantage, as well as the non restriction of where they live, it is alot bigger than most on here want to admit..

 

 

I think its fair to point out that X and T do not get the "best" players from throughout J County if by "best" you mean most gifted athletically. If that was the case, wouldn't those two schools turn out a lot more D1 players than everyone else in the state? To the best of my knowledge, that's not the case. When I watch X and T I don't see a field full of huge, fast and strong athletes. Rather, I see a bunch of slightly better than average players at every position, that are extremely well coached and well disciplined. A friend of mine involved in high school athletics played at Henry Clay and lost to Trinity in the playoffs ( my friend was a football stud and got a football scholarship to UK). He told me that Henry Clay had much better athletes on the field, but that Trinity was better prepared, better coached and better disciplined.

 

Heck, I was much, much more impressed with the athletic abilities of the Lou. Central players this year than those on X and T. Further proving my point that X and T don't get all the "best" players in J County is the fact that Central has 3 juniors on their team that are considered to be D1 players. X and T sure didn't get them. Now I will submit that had Central not made a strong effort to really rebuild its football programs several years ago, those players could have ended up at X and T, but whose fault would that have been? Also Male has probably turned out more D1 players over the years than X and T so X and T are getting those "best" players either. Being a public school sure has not hurt Male's ability to get those "best" players.

 

I know its not politically correct for me to say it, but I'm saying it again any way: to the extent that X and T get players from the public schools, its the fault of the public schools. I don't care if a kid gets a 50% financial aid package, very few parents would spend big dollars to send their kids to a private school (other than the religious oriented types) and shuns free public transportation, when there is a strong academic and athletic public school alternative that's for free. If Highlands did not put an emphasis on athletics and academics, by kids would have attended CovCath or NewCath. Fortunately, I have a public school that does so and as a result I don't have to shuck out thousands of dollars to provide those things to my sons.

 

And if more public schools in J County were like Male, Manual and Central and put the same emphasis on football that they do on boys basketball or other sports, there would be a lot fewer kids wanting to get into X and T to play on their football team. The reason more public schools don't is because they don't have to. They are going to get their share of students regardless of whether they have a strong football program or not, which means they'll get their ADA numbers. Whereas, X and T know how important success football is to their enrollment numbers. And they need high enrollment to attract the necessary revenue to keep the doors open. Seems like everyone on here likes to slam the KHSAA for always making its decisions based on money and there is some truth to that. They have to be concerned about money. But those same critics don't apply that "its all about the money" logic to the decisions of the public and private schools. Trust me, money is a big factor in the quality of athletic programs. So if you are a high school administrator and you only have so much money to go around, you have to prioritize the programs that are going to get the greatest emphasis and resources. For decades on decades, the emphasis at most of the public schools was boys basketball and as a result football suffered at those schools. At the private schools however, the emphasis was on football because there is basically an unlimited number of spots on those teams, which means 100s of tuition paying kids could be on the team, which again meant big revenue for the private schools and the doors stayed open. Father Beuter at LexCath was out spoken in his belief that the only way LexCath could survive was if the athletic programs became a magnet for students. He was right. I'm sure there may be other reasons (busing, academics, etc) that have factored into the enrollment growth of X and T, but I firmly believe the success of their athletic programs, in particular football, has had a lot to do with it.

I know it gets talked about all the time, but until there is a way to control recruiting of players, does'nt matter if it is public or private, A thru AAAAAA, boys or girls. You are never going to have a chance for equality. I'm not pointing a finger at any one school, or at any one sport, because it is not only done to win state championships, it is also done just to make a team more competive. You may get more looks from a college or university if you play for a top ranked team, but if your good enought they will find you. RE:Pendelton County had a young man go to Morehead to play football a year or two ago. Deffinately not a powerhouse high school team.

If it's all about commitment and community support and things like that, then why is it T and X doesn't dominate in basketball, too? Do they not support that, as well? It sounds like the commitment, support, facilities and such are limited to football only at those 2 schools.

 

 

Well. St X has won 20 straight swimming state titles, and yes, thats correct, 20 yrs straight! I think there is commitment, support and facilities there for that sport.

 

However, in that same 20 year period, they have never beaten Cincy St X (900 ish students) who was #1 in the US again last year.