PP92 - you're better than that. Grizzly and Walter have no objectivity, so I don't take their posts seriously, but you I expect a rational post from you. For starters, you do realize that that link is a compilation of at least 3 games, it didn't all happen yesterday. In fact the Jaylen Johnson inadvertant elbow in the scrum was last year at the Yum.

 

Focusing ONLY on the Allen / Mitchell interaction from yesterday's game, I hope we can agree on the following points:

 

1 - at 16:10 Allen is guarded by Snider and makes a spin move back to the lane, away from Snider and in to help defense by Mitchell

2 - in doing so, while still nominally controlling the ball, his dribble is well away from his body and the ball is not protected (you could argue he no longer has firm possession and it is a loose ball, but I don't think it really matters)

3 - Mitchell goes for the loose ball and Allen is separated from the ball and starts to go to the ground with the ball now on the other side of Mitchell (if the refs didn't call the contact as a foul there, which they didn't, it's clearly a loose ball now)

4 - as Allen is going to the ground (without the ball), he "sells" the call to try to get the foul (which he does on virtually every play when there is a defender within 10' of him). When I say "sell," he looks as if he has been tased OR shot - very much a European soccer "sell" job to make sure the ref knows there has been contact. For me, it has become a "boy who cried wolf" because he does it SOOOOO very often. I can't believe the refs who go back and watch film on the kid aren't out to get him for making them look bad on replay - prime case in point (

).

5 - as they go to the ground (and as Allen is theatrically selling the call), Allen clearly and intentionally wraps up Mitchell's left arm with Allen's right arm. (This is not as clearly visible until the replay from the different angle is shown as they come back from the Duke timeout.)

6 - as Mitchell extricates himself from the entanglement with Allen to get into the offensive flow since Snider has now picked up the ball and is charging up the court, Allen holds on for dear life to Mitchell's arm and tries to keep him on the ground with him even as Mitchell's hand (where it gets larger from the wrist and is Allen's last chance to grab something to hold onto and keep him out of the play and on the ground with him).

7 - as Mitchell gets his arm free and rolls over to go get in the play, he slaps Allen on the forehead, gets up and goes to get in the play

8 - after Mitchell slaps him, and while holding his nose that never seemed to get any contact during the play, Allen is clearly looking up toward the referee who isn't calling anything and is trailing Snider up the court with the ball.

 

Assume we agree on all that, what do we conclude from it?

A - Mitchell should not have slapped Allen on the forehead. Was it intentional, violent, a threat to safety, pre-meditated, part of a consistent pattern of bad behavior from him? No. Was it a natural reaction to being held by Allen after some contact in a high intensity environment? Yes. Should it have been called as a personal or flagrant foul - not in my opinion.

 

B - Did Allen sell a call where not that much contact was made? Yes. Did he try to hold a player on the ground to prevent him from getting up and getting into the play? Clearly yes. Should that have been a personal foul? Yes, but I have no problem that it wasn't called. Is that conduct part of a consistent pattern of both bad actions by Allen and theatrical selling of minimal or no contact to try to gain advantage? Yes and Yes. To me, it's both of those things that makes Allen, and to some extent Duke basketball ("learn how to take a charge and convince the refs that it was really a charge"), that makes him / them so odious. Throw in a particularly arrogant coach - yeah, he's not the only one, and you have a very good team that it is easy to root against.

If that had been any other player instead of Allen, I'm sure the responses of both UK and Lville fans in this thread would be much different. Nevermind the fact that Mitchell also got away with taunting earlier in the game when he made a nice move to score on Grayson then ran up in his face and started jawing.

 

If you're talking about the breakaway layup after Mahmoud tipped the ball away at 6:07 left in the 2nd half, you're delusional. After making the layup, Mitchell does, in fact, get up in Allen's face - but that's because he's playing defense and Allen is the guy he is guarding. Didn't say a word or make any taunting gestures.

 

If there is another instance you're talking about, give me a time of the game and I'll happily check it out. Got it on TiVo.

PP92 - you're better than that. Grizzly and Walter have no objectivity, so I don't take their posts seriously, but you I expect a rational post from you. For starters, you do realize that that link is a compilation of at least 3 games, it didn't all happen yesterday. In fact the Jaylen Johnson inadvertant elbow in the scrum was last year at the Yum.

 

Focusing ONLY on the Allen / Mitchell interaction from yesterday's game, I hope we can agree on the following points:

 

1 - at 16:10 Allen is guarded by Snider and makes a spin move back to the lane, away from Snider and in to help defense by Mitchell

2 - in doing so, while still nominally controlling the ball, his dribble is well away from his body and the ball is not protected (you could argue he no longer has firm possession and it is a loose ball, but I don't think it really matters)

3 - Mitchell goes for the loose ball and Allen is separated from the ball and starts to go to the ground with the ball now on the other side of Mitchell (if the refs didn't call the contact as a foul there, which they didn't, it's clearly a loose ball now)

4 - as Allen is going to the ground (without the ball), he "sells" the call to try to get the foul (which he does on virtually every play when there is a defender within 10' of him). When I say "sell," he looks as if he has been tased OR shot - very much a European soccer "sell" job to make sure the ref knows there has been contact. For me, it has become a "boy who cried wolf" because he does it SOOOOO very often. I can't believe the refs who go back and watch film on the kid aren't out to get him for making them look bad on replay - prime case in point (

).

5 - as they go to the ground (and as Allen is theatrically selling the call), Allen clearly and intentionally wraps up Mitchell's left arm with Allen's right arm. (This is not as clearly visible until the replay from the different angle is shown as they come back from the Duke timeout.)

6 - as Mitchell extricates himself from the entanglement with Allen to get into the offensive flow since Snider has now picked up the ball and is charging up the court, Allen holds on for dear life to Mitchell's arm and tries to keep him on the ground with him even as Mitchell's hand (where it gets larger from the wrist and is Allen's last chance to grab something to hold onto and keep him out of the play and on the ground with him).

7 - as Mitchell gets his arm free and rolls over to go get in the play, he slaps Allen on the forehead, gets up and goes to get in the play

8 - after Mitchell slaps him, and while holding his nose that never seemed to get any contact during the play, Allen is clearly looking up toward the referee who isn't calling anything and is trailing Snider up the court with the ball.

 

Assume we agree on all that, what do we conclude from it?

A - Mitchell should not have slapped Allen on the forehead. Was it intentional, violent, a threat to safety, pre-meditated, part of a consistent pattern of bad behavior from him? No. Was it a natural reaction to being held by Allen after some contact in a high intensity environment? Yes. Should it have been called as a personal or flagrant foul - not in my opinion.

 

B - Did Allen sell a call where not that much contact was made? Yes. Did he try to hold a player on the ground to prevent him from getting up and getting into the play? Clearly yes. Should that have been a personal foul? Yes, but I have no problem that it wasn't called. Is that conduct part of a consistent pattern of both bad actions by Allen and theatrical selling of minimal or no contact to try to gain advantage? Yes and Yes. To me, it's both of those things that makes Allen, and to some extent Duke basketball ("learn how to take a charge and convince the refs that it was really a charge"), that makes him / them so odious. Throw in a particularly arrogant coach - yeah, he's not the only one, and you have a very good team that it is easy to root against.

 

:popcorn:

Duke is going to end up as the dang 2 or 3 seed in Kentuckys region.

I haven't watched Duke this year. I was wondering if Jayson Tatum is normally this huge of a crybaby?

I haven't watched Duke this year. I was wondering if Jayson Tatum is normally this huge of a crybaby?

Generally, I thought Duke exhibited much more negative emotion than I 've ever seen from them before.

Duke is going to end up as the dang 2 or 3 seed in Kentuckys region.

 

After what the committee said about taking K's absence into account when it comes time for seeding, they may still get a #1 seed.

After what the committee said about taking K's absence into account when it comes time for seeding, they may still get a #1 seed.

 

It would be one thing if Duke looked great when he was coaching. However Duke wasn't playing to their potential yet even with him.

 

At this rate they will have a few more losses in the tough ACC. So his absence could still get them to at least be at 2 or 3 seed still. Which is scary for who the top seed is in that region because talent Wise they are loaded. Just hopefully they never develop that chemistry to put it all together

Duke is going to end up as the dang 2 or 3 seed in Kentuckys region.

 

I am sure this will come back and completely haunt me, but that doesn't worry me like it would have before the season started.

Duke will be overall 1 seed because.

Have watched at least half dozen commentators on various ESPN shows say some one should beat the everloving crap out of him? Is he a member of ISIS or something I haven't heard about. What has this country become when you would say something like that. People take sports and their teams way too seriously and its not the kids, they're laid back and dont care. Its the grownups,people on this board for example that worry me.. Did you see 90% of the people yelling and screamin in the stands at the Louisville game, median age looked to be 50 yelling for blood,embarassing

 

It's amazing how a little pregame alcohol changes people isn't it?

PP92 - you're better than that. Grizzly and Walter have no objectivity, so I don't take their posts seriously, but you I expect a rational post from you. For starters, you do realize that that link is a compilation of at least 3 games, it didn't all happen yesterday. In fact the Jaylen Johnson inadvertant elbow in the scrum was last year at the Yum.

 

Focusing ONLY on the Allen / Mitchell interaction from yesterday's game, I hope we can agree on the following points:

 

1 - at 16:10 Allen is guarded by Snider and makes a spin move back to the lane, away from Snider and in to help defense by Mitchell

2 - in doing so, while still nominally controlling the ball, his dribble is well away from his body and the ball is not protected (you could argue he no longer has firm possession and it is a loose ball, but I don't think it really matters)

3 - Mitchell goes for the loose ball and Allen is separated from the ball and starts to go to the ground with the ball now on the other side of Mitchell (if the refs didn't call the contact as a foul there, which they didn't, it's clearly a loose ball now)

4 - as Allen is going to the ground (without the ball), he "sells" the call to try to get the foul (which he does on virtually every play when there is a defender within 10' of him). When I say "sell," he looks as if he has been tased OR shot - very much a European soccer "sell" job to make sure the ref knows there has been contact. For me, it has become a "boy who cried wolf" because he does it SOOOOO very often. I can't believe the refs who go back and watch film on the kid aren't out to get him for making them look bad on replay - prime case in point (

).

5 - as they go to the ground (and as Allen is theatrically selling the call), Allen clearly and intentionally wraps up Mitchell's left arm with Allen's right arm. (This is not as clearly visible until the replay from the different angle is shown as they come back from the Duke timeout.)

6 - as Mitchell extricates himself from the entanglement with Allen to get into the offensive flow since Snider has now picked up the ball and is charging up the court, Allen holds on for dear life to Mitchell's arm and tries to keep him on the ground with him even as Mitchell's hand (where it gets larger from the wrist and is Allen's last chance to grab something to hold onto and keep him out of the play and on the ground with him).

7 - as Mitchell gets his arm free and rolls over to go get in the play, he slaps Allen on the forehead, gets up and goes to get in the play

8 - after Mitchell slaps him, and while holding his nose that never seemed to get any contact during the play, Allen is clearly looking up toward the referee who isn't calling anything and is trailing Snider up the court with the ball.

 

Assume we agree on all that, what do we conclude from it?

A - Mitchell should not have slapped Allen on the forehead. Was it intentional, violent, a threat to safety, pre-meditated, part of a consistent pattern of bad behavior from him? No. Was it a natural reaction to being held by Allen after some contact in a high intensity environment? Yes. Should it have been called as a personal or flagrant foul - not in my opinion.

 

B - Did Allen sell a call where not that much contact was made? Yes. Did he try to hold a player on the ground to prevent him from getting up and getting into the play? Clearly yes. Should that have been a personal foul? Yes, but I have no problem that it wasn't called. Is that conduct part of a consistent pattern of both bad actions by Allen and theatrical selling of minimal or no contact to try to gain advantage? Yes and Yes. To me, it's both of those things that makes Allen, and to some extent Duke basketball ("learn how to take a charge and convince the refs that it was really a charge"), that makes him / them so odious. Throw in a particularly arrogant coach - yeah, he's not the only one, and you have a very good team that it is easy to root against.

 

No. We don't agree.

 

Yes, that video is a compilation of events from 3 Duke/UL games in the last year. I played basketball and when scrambling for a loose ball when elbows are brought into the equation they aren't inadvertent. Did he purposely and knowingly try to hit Grayson? Who knows if he knew it was Grayson. Did he swing elbows in an attempt to secure the ball? Absolutely. Happens quite often in basketball games. Sometimes the elbows connect. Sometimes they don't.

 

It looked to me like their arms got tangled together before they fell to the ground. While falling Grayson's own arm hit his nose and that is why he grabbed his nose. It's actually pretty easy to see. Especially in slow motion. That is why he was holding his nose before Mitchell gave him the girly slap on the forehead. He hit himself. With the way he flails around sometimes I'm not surprised.

 

Again, I get that Grayson no longer gets the benefit of the doubt but the anti-Grayson/Duke/Coach K crowd doesn't possess anymore objectivity than the pro-Grayson/Duke/Coach K crowd. It's laughable to suggest otherwise.

If we don't agree that Allen is "theatrically selling a call" in an attempt to get a foul called where there is no contact / less contact than his reaction warrants, we just see the world through different lenses. So be it.

And Duke isn't more hated than UofL on this board? Yeah right

If we don't agree that Allen is "theatrically selling a call" in an attempt to get a foul called where there is no contact / less contact than his reaction warrants, we just see the world through different lenses. So be it.

 

Truth.