Would this work for a true all-state team? Have coaches nominate kids. To nominate, it requires a write up as to why a certain kid deserves consideration. Then, you have a third party KHSAA association look thru all the nominations by position. You dwindle down the to the top 10 (just a guess) at each position. Stats and accomplishments should help to filter this pretty quickly at first glance. Then start to dissect those 10 much closer, looking at that year's stats and accomplishment, who they played and how they made their team better. Seems like it would be worth the effort in comparison to the effort these kids put in to work at their skill.

 

Then you post the programs that nominated kids or participated. You don't have to post who they nominated, but whether they participated...even if they didn't have any nominations and they at least got back to you saying so. This would hold the programs accountable for making sure they at least had a say and a chance to nominate their top kids.

 

I know some will say, well you'll have coaches writing up every kid and then it becomes hard to manage. My guess is that if you require a write up, that a coach is not going to take the time to write up all his kids. He will most likely take his top kids and write them up. And if a coach did write up all the kids, it would become very obvious very early in the process and it would most likely hurt any of his kids that actually had a shot because the committee would use the ole "consider the source" philosophy when evaluating one of his kids.

 

If we are relying on journalist to truly evaluate talent across the state, it will never be correct. Nothing against them, but it's just may not be as important to some as it is others and that's not fair to the kids. I also say you can't count on the coaches, because some hold grudges and some would never vote for anyone outside their region. I know that's not right, but it happens.

 

The C-J team is much like that, but A LOT easier.

 

Coaches nominate (without having to write grafs and statements on each and every kid they nominate).

Coaches vote.

 

Except just about half of them do (which means more than 40 percent -- sometimes closer to 50 or 60 percent -- do NOT).

 

The BGP team is the only one left that could be considered the most accurate, but I'm guessing people will have issues with it, too:

 

C-J COACHES: Not enough coaches voting.

AP MEDIA: Not enough spread-out representation.

LHL COACHES + PAPER: Seniors only, not all positions represented. Plus, only 20 or 22 spots.

GLFCA SENIOR ALL-STARS: Rest of state need not apply. Underclassmen? Who cares!

EAST VS. WEST SENIORS (TEAM LOUISVILLE VS. TEAM KENTUCKY): Louisville gets half of representation? C'Mon Man! And youngsters (Fr-So-Jr), bye bye.

KENTUCKY VS. TENNESSEE BORDER BOWL: Perceived as too EKY. Some kids turn down because of basketball (and therefore not listed). Some kids turn down because they've already played in previous all-star games (therefore not listed). Some kids not nominated by their coach (therefore not listed).

 

At least six all-star/all-state teams have been announced and none have been perfect.

 

BGP could change that, but that's an awfully hard task.

CKSportsFan...now it has to be FBS..not FCS and has to be scholarship not walk on or preferred. I would say to that any player that gets any offer from a D1 program should be at least HM on any State list.

 

Being asked to walk on at a FCS school is not the same -- not remotely the same -- as what Harris, Sindelar, Reece Ryan, Quinton Baker, etc., have. Meaning they go to a big-time school, do not pay and have a better shot to play.

 

Walk-on offers mean little. Still paying a ton to go to school. Very little chance to see the field. May not get same stuff as scholarship players do. Considering them the same as players with multiple full-ride FBS scholarships who have maxed out their official visits is crazy. No coach or media member worth his salt would equate the two.

 

Former E'town QB Kyle Todd and former John Hardin TE Chris White both walked on at Louisville. White played a little. Not sure Todd ever saw a snap (he transferred to a JUCO to try to get another D-I or D-II school to look at him). However, doesn't mean any all-State team whiffed on Todd and White (who weren't listed on many All-Star or All-State teams) their senior years because Todd and White walked on at a FBS school. Neither one had a major impact.

 

In many cases, it would be better for a kid to take a D-II offer than to walk on at a D-I program (even a small FCS one).

 

Also, size has a lot to do with it. Ask Meade County coach Larry Mofield about Chris Roe and Nick Stinnett. Colleges loved Stinnett's size and build, but Stinnett didn't have a the grades (and other things) to be able to play at the D-I level.

 

Roe, a two-time Area Defensive Player of the Year (even NFL player Brandon Deaderick didn't do that), had the grades. Had the technique. Had the attitude. But did NOT have the size. Mofield practically had to beg in-state NAIA programs to give Roe a look.

 

So D-I FCS and FBS and D-II offers are not the end-all, be-all, but they are a good starting point.

 

FCS walk-on is about a 4-of-5 on the D-I scale (FBS scholarship, FCS scholarship, FBS walk-on, FCS walk-on, play for non-scholarship FCS such as Morehead or Dayton or San Diego or Valpo). And I might be mis-ranking the Ivy League in there as it has produced some NFL players.

I knew it was coming. There's no disrespect for those kids. Just that it shows how big a joke the AP has become.

 

I think there is no All-State team that has a well executed system.

 

The Coaches Poll in the C-J is the worst of all because the amount of votes are limited and coaches nominate their guys as well as their coaching friends'. The most bias of all.

 

The AP Poll as we see here I think does a better job because the players who get nominated typically deserve to be considered... but you still get regional bias and negligence by Media Members simply not to vote results in complete snubs for entire regions.

 

Truth be told, the BGP All-State team is probably truly the best way to identify the state's best players. I think the majority of debate comes from the fact that players are left off completely or someone sees a deserving player as Honorable Mention while maybe a less deserving player gets First or 2nd Team honors. I think the whole "Honorable Mention" aspect is asking for trouble. If you come out when simply a single shot comprehensive All-State team (like BGP) it helps to stymie that controversy because now it is much ahrder to pick names that "shouldn't be on there"

 

Just because the Appalachian News-Express nominates 5 kids from Shelby Valley doesn't mean all five of those players deserve to make an All-State team. Just because the Head Coach at Crittenden County thinks he has 3 All-State guys and his best friend over at Hancock County has two All-State guys doesn't make it so. The All-State team at it's core should be a consensus of unbiased votes to accurately pin point who the most deserving players are.

 

I think it is fine for the Media and Coaches to nominate the pool of candidates...and in doing so those players should be considered... but at the end of the day give me maybe a First and Second Team with some sort of educated placement by people who can put their bias aside and it will always be the best looking All-State team.

 

Give me a Final Voting Panel w/

1. 8 Head Coaches.. 2 per Region... one being from a larger school and the other a smaller school.

 

2. 8 Media Members... 1 C-J (Jason Frakes), 1 LHL (Mike Fields), 1 from KY Post (NKY), 1 from Daily Indpendent (NEKY), 1 from WYMT in Hazard (EKY and Southeast KY), 1 from Bowling Green (Either TV or newspaper), 1 from Paducah (either TV or news), 1 from Commonwealth Jounrla in Somerset

 

3. Give me 5 more additional respected opinions... let BGP have a voice, bring in two or three respected officials, get the recruiting guy from The Cats Pause, if there is another media member who is well respected bring him in.

 

4. Taking ONLY the nominations from the coaches, media, and BGP out together two comprehensive teams and select a Player of the Year, Coach of the Year, Offensive MVP, and Defensive MVP.

The problem to me is knowingly putting out a product that is flawed from the very start. You have no representation from NKY or NEKY on your selection committee, so the answer is to simply exclude them altogether? You have about 50% of the voters from the Western part of the state and thus have an overflow of kids from that area.

 

I believe there were 5 or 6 kids on this team from John Hardin whom Highlands put a running clock on rather easily. Pretty pitiful if you ask me.

The problem to me is knowingly putting out a product that is flawed from the very start. You have no representation from NKY or NEKY on your selection committee, so the answer is to simply exclude them altogether? You have about 50% of the voters from the Western part of the state and thus have an overflow of kids from that area.

 

I believe there were 5 or 6 kids on this team from John Hardin whom Highlands put a running clock on rather easily. Pretty pitiful if you ask me.

 

The representation is an issue, however it is a fairly recent once. Up until 2012, NKY had more than dozen AP All-State selections every year. When the Cincy/NKy papers merged into Cincy papers first, that changed.

 

Since the Cincy papers aren't going to pay for Kentucky AP membership -- I do NOT blame them, they already pay their Ohio dues -- now they don't vote.

 

That needs to be looked at. If you do, though, you're also inviting the Madison Indiana paper (covers Mason County), a West Virginia paper (covers Belfry), a Tennessee paper from Clarksville (covering Fort Campbell) and an Illinois paper which covers some WKY schools.

 

There is NEKY representation, but Ashland apparently chose not to vote this year. Ashland has had plenty of kids make it in the past, so this is not a yearly concern.

 

I'm in favor of a committee All-State team.

 

Don't know where or when they would meet though (maybe the last KHSAA meeting of the year or the first KHSAA meeting in January)? That way they could do it and let the KHSAA know immediately (and media members of the committee could cover the KHSAA meeting if newsworthy).

 

However, more All-Star Teams and All-State Teams gives more kids different ways to be honored (if they are shafted on all six though ...)

I believe there were 5 or 6 kids on this team from John Hardin whom Highlands put a running clock on rather easily. Pretty pitiful if you ask me.

 

Back to my point...

 

John Hardin had only on player make 1st and/or 2nd Team... Highlands fans sees the numerous "Honorable Mention" John Hardin players and immediately take exception and scream FOUL.

 

The point is valid... there is no doubt Highlands had players just as deserving as the JH players mentioned... but the issue comes in the fact A) One Media member casting a biased ballot put those JH players there B) One Media member not casting a biased ballot entirely kept the additional Highlands players off C) If Ethan Cobb was the only JH player on the team shown (2nd team OL) then the controversy probably wouldn't exist.

 

Once again it is the inclusion of the Honorable Mention...and the fact they are mentioned is because of one biased vote... that creates the controversy.

Back to my point...

 

John Hardin had only on player make 1st and/or 2nd Team... Highlands fans sees the numerous "Honorable Mention" John Hardin players and immediately take exception and scream FOUL.

 

The point is valid... there is no doubt Highlands had players just as deserving as the JH players mentioned... but the issue comes in the fact A) One Media member casting a biased ballot put those JH players there B) One Media member not casting a biased ballot entirely kept the additional Highlands players off C) If Ethan Cobb was the only JH player on the team shown (2nd team OL) then the controversy probably wouldn't exist.

 

Once again it is the inclusion of the Honorable Mention...and the fact they are mentioned is because of one biased vote... that creates the controversy.

 

In past years, it took MULTIPLE votes to make honorable mention (not just from one local paper).

 

That might have changed ...

If Murrer was on CJ's 2nd team defense, that shows me what an absolute joke the CJ is on this subject. Sam hasn't played defense for Cov Cath in all the time he's been there.

Him being called out on 2nd team defense is about as big a slap in the face as not being on their at all IMO- it shows the laziness of the people voting and discredits the results.

 

Caldwell Co with (5) players either 1st or 2nd team All State and (1) more Honorable Mention.

No wonder they won state.

 

Oh wait- I mean, runner up.

 

Darn- semi's?

 

Um

I am pretty sure there are no NKY members in the state AP.

 

Bingo

In past years, it took MULTIPLE votes to make honorable mention (not just from one local paper).

 

That might have changed ...

 

Based off the current Honorable Mentions I feel fairly confident saying only one vote was needed.

Being asked to walk on at a FCS school is not the same -- not remotely the same -- as what Harris, Sindelar, Reece Ryan, Quinton Baker, etc., have. Meaning they go to a big-time school, do not pay and have a better shot to play.

 

Walk-on offers mean little. Still paying a ton to go to school. Very little chance to see the field. May not get same stuff as scholarship players do. Considering them the same as players with multiple full-ride FBS scholarships who have maxed out their official visits is crazy. No coach or media member worth his salt would equate the two.

 

Former E'town QB Kyle Todd and former John Hardin TE Chris White both walked on at Louisville. White played a little. Not sure Todd ever saw a snap (he transferred to a JUCO to try to get another D-I or D-II school to look at him). However, doesn't mean any all-State team whiffed on Todd and White (who weren't listed on many All-Star or All-State teams) their senior years because Todd and White walked on at a FBS school. Neither one had a major impact.

 

In many cases, it would be better for a kid to take a D-II offer than to walk on at a D-I program (even a small FCS one).

 

Also, size has a lot to do with it. Ask Meade County coach Larry Mofield about Chris Roe and Nick Stinnett. Colleges loved Stinnett's size and build, but Stinnett didn't have a the grades (and other things) to be able to play at the D-I level.

 

Roe, a two-time Area Defensive Player of the Year (even NFL player Brandon Deaderick didn't do that), had the grades. Had the technique. Had the attitude. But did NOT have the size. Mofield practically had to beg in-state NAIA programs to give Roe a look.

 

So D-I FCS and FBS and D-II offers are not the end-all, be-all, but they are a good starting point.

 

FCS walk-on is about a 4-of-5 on the D-I scale (FBS scholarship, FCS scholarship, FBS walk-on, FCS walk-on, play for non-scholarship FCS such as Morehead or Dayton or San Diego or Valpo). And I might be mis-ranking the Ivy League in there as it has produced some NFL players.

 

Don’t really remember how we got on this subject..LOL. CKSportsFan I agree with basically all your points. Believe me I understand the recruiting process after having three kids go through it. “Being asked to walk on at a FCS school is not the same -- not remotely the same -- as what Harris, Sindelar, Reece Ryan, Quinton Baker, etc., have. Meaning they go to a big-time school, do not pay and have a better shot to play.” I agree, I don’t think anyone said they were.

 

However, I disagree with the statement or your premise that “Walkon offers mean little” Last year when Walker from St X decided to take a preferred walkon offer from KY instead of taking several smaller school scholarship offers no said it meant little. Charlie Strong was a walkon. Its what you do with the opportunity that counts….ask Scott Ratcliff, walkon at louisville earned a scholarship and is now coaching at X or T.

 

There are many reasons why a school might offer a player a walkon offer, (Not enough scholarships at that position, more critical needs at other positions) one reason wouldn’t be because the player is not a stand out player at the HS level. FBS & FCS have the pick of the litter, they just don’t throw out offers (Scholarship, Grey Shirt or Walkon). If you get any offer at the FBS or FCS level it’s because they believe that player can make them better and have the ability or potential to play at that level…bottom line.

 

All major programs at the FBS or FCS level depend on a quality walkon program. FBS and FCS teams average 120 players per team. However, FBS only get 85 scholarships and FCS 65 and can’t give out more than 25 in any given year. That means 25%-35% of your players are walkon non-scholarship players…ask any college coach if those walkons mean little.

 

Yes, I believe D2 offer could better than a walkon at the FBS or FCS level, However, its up to the player and their ability. Not all programs treat walkons the way you describe it. Many treat every player the same (Other than the obvious things they can’t based on NCAA rules). I know this because I had a son that was a walkon at a major FBS program. He received everything a scholarship player received to include his letter and three Championship rings.

But the Belfry guy sure lobbied for his kids. :thumb:

 

Good for the kids. I cant help but believe that Baker and Conner Messer from Raceland would have landed on a team. Both those kids are D1 athletes and more than deserving of some statewide attention.

Can you make a walkon and make an impact? Sure. Ravi Moss in basketball for UK fans.

 

Many kickers are walkons (because schools don't want to waste a full-ride on a specialty position).

 

You can keep playing the game and further learn the game as a walkon. Get to travel. Get bigger, faster, stronger.

 

But in the big scheme of things, those walkons are going to have less of an impact -- either because there are more scholarship players than there are walkons, or because the scholarship players are better than the walkons -- than the players the schools decided were worth the money (given actual scholarships).

 

But a QB headed to a FBS program in a "Power 5" Conference is a world apart than a LB, FB, TE walking on at an obscure FCS school who few people could name the conference it is in, the team's nickname or even the city (or state) the school is located.

 

That's like equating someone given a basketball scholarship to play at Louisville is the same as walking on at Radford or Quinnipiac or McNeese State (you still get to be on the team, right? You still get to practice, right? You still get a ring on the off chance the team does anything, right?).

 

Um, no.

 

Of course, maybe a walkon becomes the next J.J. Watt or Clay Mathews or Logan Mankins or Jordy Nelson or Santana Moss.

 

But most walkons don't have that type of "physical freak" specimen build, glue-like hands or lightning-strike speed, either.

 

At least not walkons from Kentucky high schools.

 

Who are five walkons -- in the history of football -- from Kentucky high schools who had a major impacts?

Can you make a walkon and make an impact? Sure. Ravi Moss in basketball for UK fans.

 

Many kickers are walkons (because schools don't want to waste a full-ride on a specialty position).

 

You can keep playing the game and further learn the game as a walkon. Get to travel. Get bigger, faster, stronger.

 

But in the big scheme of things, those walkons are going to have less of an impact -- either because there are more scholarship players than there are walkons, or because the scholarship players are better than the walkons -- than the players the schools decided were worth the money (given actual scholarships).

 

But a QB headed to a FBS program in a "Power 5" Conference is a world apart than a LB, FB, TE walking on at an obscure FCS school who few people could name the conference it is in, the team's nickname or even the city (or state) the school is located.

 

That's like equating someone given a basketball scholarship to play at Louisville is the same as walking on at Radford or Quinnipiac or McNeese State (you still get to be on the team, right? You still get to practice, right? You still get a ring on the off chance the team does anything, right?).

 

Um, no.

 

Of course, maybe a walkon becomes the next J.J. Watt or Clay Mathews or Logan Mankins or Jordy Nelson or Santana Moss.

 

But most walkons don't have that type of "physical freak" specimen build, glue-like hands or lightning-strike speed, either.

 

At least not walkons from Kentucky high schools.

 

Who are five walkons -- in the history of football -- from Kentucky high schools who had a major impacts?

 

You win...I'm beat down. Walk-ons are not wothy. I thought this was about the AP All Star team...LOL. Jason asked a question I just answered it. You broke out with D1 FBS Scholarships are the only ones that matter. Obviously you knew what he was offered. I still believe he should have been on the list and probably would have if the News Enterprise wasn't so slanted towards Hardin County teams. How many offers did you have?

Edited January 5, 201511 yr by Justafan#85

Don't let him win, man. Come on now.