Your sarcasm aside, what are you implying?

 

Maybe it's just me...but I was taught that the New Testament "trumped" the Old Testament. That Jesus came to save us, and that the New Testament teachings of Jesus were the foundation of Christianity.

Maybe it's just me...but I was taught that the New Testament "trumped" the Old Testament. That Jesus came to save us, and that the New Testament teachings of Jesus were the foundation of Christianity.

 

The teachings of Jesus are the foundation of Christianity. But what specifically are you referring to? You said the beatitudes. What portion of the beatitudes says that Capital Punishment isn't permissible?

Here's what I don't get....When people say you can't take the Bible literally because in the OT it says that men must wear beards, you can sell people, etc., etc., many say "well that's the Old Testament, the New Testament is what we go off of now". And yet, here we are trying to use the OT to justify the use of capital punishment. :idunno:

The teachings of Jesus are the foundation of Christianity. But what specifically are you referring to? You said the beatitudes. What portion of the beatitudes says that Capital Punishment isn't permissible?

 

Just guessing they are referring to "turn the other cheek" and "let he that is without sin, cast the first stone"

The one that says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is one that helps shape my personal morality. Which is completely different than the role of government to protect its citizens.

 

That being said, if someone is hurting my kids or my wife, I'm casting the first stone and we'll see what St. Peter says when I get to the pearly gates.

God commanded Capital Punishment in the Old Testament.

 

Jesus changed things.

 

God commanded capital punishment for adultery in Leviticus 20:10. Jesus forgave a woman caught in adultery in John 8.

Here's what I don't get....When people say you can't take the Bible literally because in the OT it says that men must wear beards, you can sell people, etc., etc., many say "well that's the Old Testament, the New Testament is what we go off of now". And yet, here we are trying to use the OT to justify the use of capital punishment. :idunno:

 

I'm not using OT Scriptures to justify the use of Capital Punishment today. I'm saying that there was clearly a point in history where God put a government in place (Israel) and He commanded that Capital Punishment be utilized.

 

It's not as clear in the New Testament, but I think a New Testament case (namely Romans 13) can be made for it.

I'm not using OT Scriptures to justify the use of Capital Punishment today. I'm saying that there was clearly a point in history where God put a government in place (Israel) and He commanded that Capital Punishment be utilized.

 

It's not as clear in the New Testament, but I think a New Testament case (namely Romans 13) can be made for it.

 

That's a tough verse to get my head around. Does that apply to all governments? (And of course, how does that apply to governments where people can vote to change the laws?)

 

I've always had the interpretation that "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" to imply that the government is an entity to itself, separate from God.

 

Could be an interesting thread on its own.

Jesus changed things.

 

God commanded capital punishment for adultery in Leviticus 20:10. Jesus forgave a woman caught in adultery in John 8.

 

I agree that Jesus changed a lot of things. The major change was that people would no longer be saved by obeying law, but rather in recognizing that the law could not be perfectly kept (except by him) & that grace is now the means of salvation.

 

My primary point is that there is no New Testament command (key word in my argument) for or against Capital Punishment. There is a New Testament command to submit to governing authorities & that if one disobeys that authority, there are potential consequences to be faced. With some governments, Capital Punishment can be one of those consequences.

I agree that Jesus changed a lot of things. The major change was that people would no longer be saved by obeying law, but rather in recognizing that the law could not be perfectly kept (except by him) & that grace is now the means of salvation.

 

My primary point is that there is no New Testament command (key word in my argument) for or against Capital Punishment. There is a New Testament command to submit to governing authorities & that if one disobeys that authority, there are potential consequences to be faced. With some governments, Capital Punishment can be one of those consequences.

 

I get what you're saying, but I still stick with the "thou shalt not kill" thing as a kind of catch-all

The teachings of Jesus are the foundation of Christianity. But what specifically are you referring to? You said the beatitudes. What portion of the beatitudes says that Capital Punishment isn't permissible?

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

That's a tough verse to get my head around. Does that apply to all governments?

 

I've always had the interpretation that "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" to imply that the government is an entity to itself, separate from God.

 

"Does it apply to all governments" is a hard question to answer. If the answer is yes, we can all rattle off innumerable examples of immoral, imperfect, or downright evil governments.

 

So I go back to what I've attempted to say...that government was put in place by God to establish order and authority in any given society. Every single government that has ever existed does not always find itself walking within what God would always want, but the authority that government is given originated with God.

I agree that Jesus changed a lot of things. The major change was that people would no longer be saved by obeying law, but rather in recognizing that the law could not be perfectly kept (except by him) & that grace is now the means of salvation.

 

My primary point is that there is no New Testament command (key word in my argument) for or against Capital Punishment. There is a New Testament command to submit to governing authorities & that if one disobeys that authority, there are potential consequences to be faced. With some governments, Capital Punishment can be one of those consequences.

 

So honest question: In cases where people are wrongfully convicted and put to death by a government whose authority comes from God...what then? Just an official "oops"?

So honest question: In cases where people are wrongfully convicted and put to death by a government whose authority comes from God...what then? Just an official "oops"?

 

That's why I stated what I said earlier...that I find myself backtracking from a long-held support for Capital Punishment. There is no margin for error with it.

 

While I still believe there are open-and-shut cases where I believe it should be practiced, I would not be opposed to our government doing away with it.

God commanded Capital Punishment in the Old Testament.

 

Not meaning to pick Randy but God "allowed" for Capital Punishment. And if anything God wanted justice to be practiced. (See the Prophets) And as was evident in the fact that David did not get "the chair," nor did Absalom (Amnon's murder) and a host of other leaders - the practice of that punishment was far from the justice God envisioned.

 

I would add that under Jesus' description of "murder," (if you think it in your heart you are just as guilty) then we are all in need of the "needle." That's why Grace rules the day.

 

IMO, Paul's intent was to let the government govern, that is the role that God has given government. But it doesn't mean that God condones the actions of every government and that is especially true in dealing with items of justice. When the government stops practicing justice, it is the expectation of the people of God to challenge it.