Some would say it is Romans 13: 3-4- ...Do you want to be free from the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

 

For the record, I am somewhat torn on the issue of Capital Punishment. My worldview is Biblically-shaped & the above passage is one reference that I believe supports the practice. So I have long been a proponent of it, but more & more I find myself backing away a bit from those beliefs--similar to what Guru said in post #29. I do feel there are open & shut cases where it should be administered. But we cannot tolerate innocent people being put to death, nor do I believe we can tolerate instances such as this.

 

But I also acknowledge there is a part of me (a sinful part, IMO) that says, "He's getting what he deserves."

 

Romans 13:1 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

 

I guess you could argue that the US government was established by God. Still, I'm thinking that the people who have infiltrated the US government over the years and written and re-written the laws weren't necessarily so established. I don't think God would have been so keen on that whole slavery thing, for starters...much less this.

Side Note - Here are a couple other BGP threads to peruse regarding this subject:

 

Oklahoma Fumbles Execution

 

The FBI Has Found Scientific Errors in 27 Death Penalty Convictions

Not exactly Romans 12:19 is it?

 

Separation of church and state?

Separation of church and state?

 

Rom 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Romans 13:1 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

 

I guess you could argue that the US government was established by God. Still, I'm thinking that the people who have infiltrated the US government over the years and written and re-written the laws weren't necessarily so established. I don't think God would have been so keen on that who slavery thing, for starters...much less this.

 

I was speaking more to Capital Punishment as a whole when I referenced Romans 13, not this particular instance in Arizona.

 

I believe the point of that passage is to highlight that government is an agent of authority put in place by God for the purpose of order in a society. Government of any kind is flawed and imperfect, as you pointed out, but it still has a God-ordained authority nonetheless.

Yeah, not really. Part of the reason the guillotine fell out of favor is because it was taking three and four drops of the blade to finish the job. High-grade gory.

 

May be true Jim...however, I'd say with the mechanical technology, steel composites and blade sharpening abilities available to us today compared to 200 years ago probably render that argument moot.

Some would say it is Romans 13: 3-4- ...Do you want to be free from the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

 

For the record, I am somewhat torn on the issue of Capital Punishment. My worldview is Biblically-shaped & the above passage is one reference that I believe supports the practice. So I have long been a proponent of it, but more & more I find myself backing away a bit from those beliefs--similar to what Guru said in post #29. I do feel there are open & shut cases where it should be administered. But we cannot tolerate innocent people being put to death, nor do I believe we can tolerate instances such as this.

 

But I also acknowledge there is a part of me (a sinful part, IMO) that says, "He's getting what he deserves."

 

I think the modern American state is a far cry from the ancient and noble concept of the Christian prince. Truth be told, I think Erasmus and Augustine must be a little disappointed to have seen just how much their notion of good governance lost out to Machiavelli and Marx.

 

I say that to say this: I have a REALLY tough time with looking at the government and people of the State of Arizona as the arm of the Lord, which is what Romans 13 has seemed to imply when applied here. Is that a lack of faith on my part? I don't know, but until I do, I'm going to continue to err on the side of answering injustice with justice, and hope that my conviction that even the most craven or evil among us may still have a part to play in God's plan.

I was speaking more to Capital Punishment as a whole when I referenced Romans 13, not this particular instance in Arizona.

 

I believe the point of that passage is to highlight that government is an agent of authority put in place by God for the purpose of order in a society. Government of any kind is flawed and imperfect, as you pointed out, but it still has a God-ordained authority nonetheless.

 

God has ordained many authorities, and many of them have screwed up - but that doesn't make their errors right. David was made King by God, yet David had Bathsheba's husband killed. Should he have done that? No. I would say the same of capital punishment. The US government did make it legal, but they shouldn't have.

I was speaking more to Capital Punishment as a whole when I referenced Romans 13, not this particular instance in Arizona.

 

I believe the point of that passage is to highlight that government is an agent of authority put in place by God for the purpose of order in a society. Government of any kind is flawed and imperfect, as you pointed out, but it still has a God-ordained authority nonetheless.

 

Feel the same way about abortion? Government says it's okay, so is that God-ordained authority too?

Separation of church and state?

 

My arguments for being against the death penalty are actually even easier if I take my religion out of it.

Rom 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

 

Nice verse in theory.

Slippery slope applies it to locking a person up, making someone pay a fine, etc.

 

As to my point of separation comment that was quoted.... if we truly want separation of church and state then Bible verses don't apply.

Nice verse in theory.

Slippery slope applies it to locking a person up, making someone pay a fine, etc.

 

As to my point of separation comment that was quoted.... if we truly want separation of church and state then Bible verses don't apply.

 

 

Nope, but the exuberant costs (compared to life in prison) and the 1% error rate do. You cool with 1 in every 100 killed being innocent? I'm sure as hell not.

Yeah, not really. Part of the reason the guillotine fell out of favor is because it was taking three and four drops of the blade to finish the job. High-grade gory.

 

Not if it's Hydraulic assisted!!!

My arguments for being against the death penalty are actually even easier if I take my religion out of it.

 

Yes, there are strong arguments for and against the death penalty which can be made based on individual morality.

 

Same goes for the abortion debate.

I forgot to quote this from UKMustangFan: Nope, but the exuberant costs (compared to life in prison) and the 1% error rate do. You cool with 1 in every 100 killed being innocent? I'm sure as hell not.

 

 

I'm for it when caught in the act and when there is indisputable evidence.

To me that statistic shows flaws in the process that need to be addressed.