I also think one thing that made Cincinnati love the Big Red Machine was that all of those players came up through our system and they were here for a long time. Pete, Johnny, Griffey, Perez, Concepcion all came up through the minors and people could identify them because they were here a long time. What if the GM would have blew the team up because they didn't win a Championship in 1970 or 1972??

 

Of course, the reason why is because this was before free agency. After that, I think it's been hard to field a "home grown" team for any length of time...especially if they're good. Somebody out there is always offering a bigger carrot to get you to change teams. The days of a Davey Concepcion, Barry Larkin or Derek Jeter coming up with an organization, staying there for two decades, and ultimately retiring from that same team, is long gone.

Don't get me wrong, free agency is a good thing...for the players...and for the teams with money. (Part of why I hated the Yankees so much beginning in the late 70's...it always seemed like Steinbrenner was trying to "buy" a championship.) But, in the overall scheme of building a longterm, homegrown team, it's killed it.

In 1971 the Reds were coming off a 100+ win season and had made it to the World Series.

 

They fell apart and had a losing record. Injuries to Tolan and pitching, coupled with a bad season from regulars like Bench and company made many want to wreck the team and start over.

 

Instead they made a key trade: Two great players (Lee May and Helms) for Joe Morgan and Jack Billingham and Geronimo. The rest is history.

 

Don't blow it up. Tweak it.

I love your knowledge of Reds history, and your thought process here, but entirely different game now. It's a lot harder to make those kind of deals in today's game.

In 1971 the Reds were coming off a 100+ win season and had made it to the World Series.

 

They fell apart and had a losing record. Injuries to Tolan and pitching, coupled with a bad season from regulars like Bench and company made many want to wreck the team and start over.

 

Instead they made a key trade: Two great players (Lee May and Helms) for Joe Morgan and Jack Billingham and Geronimo. The rest is history.

 

Don't blow it up. Tweak it.

 

Again, because free agency didn't exist back then, that was really the only way (other than your own farm system) to get any new talent. Trades don't happen as much today, because you can just wait the season out and hit the free agency market.

In 1971 the Reds were coming off a 100+ win season and had made it to the World Series.

 

They fell apart and had a losing record. Injuries to Tolan and pitching, coupled with a bad season from regulars like Bench and company made many want to wreck the team and start over.

 

Instead they made a key trade: Two great players (Lee May and Helms) for Joe Morgan and Jack Billingham and Geronimo. The rest is history.

 

Don't blow it up. Tweak it.

I don't want to completely blow it up but guys like Chapman (Closers - see moneyball approach) have a lot of value and are expendable IMO.

Agreed. The two closers that have been traded so far have brought back a ton too. I would trade Chapman in a nano second to make this team better for the future rather than trying to get Byrd. It would be tough to make the playoffs with Byrd and a healthy BP and Votto starting tomorrow b/c of the Bailey and Latos uncertainty and we know Simon will regress.

 

Wasn't Chapman and others for Stanton on the table in spring training? With Stanton in right and Bruce going to left, they may have just been a BGP member proposal though,lol. I thought Jocketty was a wheeler-dealer in St. Louis? Could it just be as simple as St.Louis fans won't put up with certain things, while Reds fans will pay to see any product on the field? for whatever reasons he has become another Mike Brown. It took forever to finally cut bait with Drew Stubbs as an example

Stanton and Chapman trade was message board fodder.

Jocketty was pretty well received in STL until the final few years. He won a World Series, but he always did it at the price of the farm system.

Jocketty was pretty well received in STL until the final few years. He won a World Series, but he always did it at the price of the farm system.

 

Right. They wanted him to use statistics more in his approach and he wouldn't so he wasn't brought back.

Right. They wanted him to use statistics more in his approach and he wouldn't so he wasn't brought back.

 

So, now it's his neglect of statistics, a couple months ago it was his gutting of their minor league system, so which is it? Is there a link that says he neglected the stats?

So, now it's his neglect of statistics, a couple months ago it was his gutting of their minor league system, so which is it? Is there a link that says he neglected the stats?

 

Lets just talk about the 'gutting' of the minor league system. Who have the Reds traded away that you would want back? Didi? Stubbs? Grandal? Maybe Wood but he's in a similar situation as Leake/Cingrani as a 4/5 starter.

It's easy to trash Jocketty now, but I think he's done a decent job overall.

 

There is not a ton of talent in the minors, but there are some quality prospects.

 

He deserves credit for drafting Mike Leake, acquiring Alfredo Simon, trading for Latos, acquiring Scott Rolen (who led this team to the playoffs) and acquiring Broxton (unfortunately the contract probably overshadows the trade itself).

 

One thing that gets overlooked in the evaluation process is the signing that DIDN'T happen with Bronson.

Of course, the reason why is because this was before free agency. After that, I think it's been hard to field a "home grown" team for any length of time...especially if they're good. Somebody out there is always offering a bigger carrot to get you to change teams. The days of a Davey Concepcion, Barry Larkin or Derek Jeter coming up with an organization, staying there for two decades, and ultimately retiring from that same team, is long gone.

Don't get me wrong, free agency is a good thing...for the players...and for the teams with money. (Part of why I hated the Yankees so much beginning in the late 70's...it always seemed like Steinbrenner was trying to "buy" a championship.) But, in the overall scheme of building a longterm, homegrown team, it's killed it.

 

I agree with you. That is why i was saying that Cincinnati loved that team though. Hard to connect with players when they are changing every 3 or 4 years.

I think Joketty has done a pretty good job here too. A lot of people don't realize, sometimes the trades you don't make are the good ones. He could have easily traded Bruce, Votto, Cueto years ago and totally rebuilt, but he didn't.

I think Joketty has done a pretty good job here too. A lot of people don't realize, sometimes the trades you don't make are the good ones. He could have easily traded Bruce, Votto, Cueto years ago and totally rebuilt, but he didn't.

 

How can you say trading your younger stars is rebuilding? When you rebuild you want to keep younger players, correct?

Walt has been a disappointment. Maybe I was just expecting more. Most of us on here has known for the last few years where this team has needed help. It hasn't gotten the help . I know it's not always easy to make the big trade or two that will turn chump to champ but I think more could have been done. This team has been left depending heavily on some very mediocre -at-best players. The Reds have needed hitting for a long while now.