Well he's four and five rings short of the two people he's compared to most (MJ and Kobe)... To assume he's going to get that number on the back half of his career is a little naive. JMO.

MJ had 5 of his 6 rings at the 10 year mark. Kobe had all 5 of his also within the first 10 years. LeBron is FAR behind, if we're just talking about rings. That doesn't even include the other greats of the NBA.

 

Kobe won Titles 1, 2 and 3 in his 4th, 5th and 6th seasons then won 4 and 5 in his 13th and 14th seasons.

MJ won 1, 2 and 3 in his 7th, 8th and 9th seasons then won 4, 5 and 6 in his 12th, 13th and 14th seasons including a year missing breaking balls.

 

Lebron is in his fourth finals in his first 10 seasons winning 1 title in his 9th season. To compare apples to apples need to wait until after his 14th season as that was the last year either Kobe or MJ won a title.

Well he's four and five rings short of the two people he's compared to most (MJ and Kobe)... To assume he's going to get that number on the back half of his career is a little naive. JMO.

 

MJ had 5 of his 6 rings at the 10 year mark. Kobe had all 5 of his also within the first 10 years. LeBron is FAR behind, if we're just talking about rings. That doesn't even include the other greats of the NBA.

 

It's hard to compare careers. Jordan was much older when he came into the league. He also had the most successful coach of the modern era and played the majority of his career with a Hall of Famer.

 

Kobe came in and the Lakers got Shaq. The Shaq from those title teams was unstoppable. Kobe was great in those title runs but would the Lakers have won those three with someone like TMac on the wing? Probably so.

 

Each career is different. As of today Jordan's career is better than Kobe's and Kobe's is better than LeBron's.

 

Teaming up with All Pros when you are considered the best is unheard of. My only point is that no one won by themselves. Nobody can name one team that won a title that was carried by one person. That is unheard of also.

 

Free agency and a small number of teams in the league prevented this before. Look at the rosters before 1990. Every champion had 3 or 4 hall of famers. Barkley and Malone were older but they were the first to go somewhere else title hunting.

 

Wasn't Kobe going to leave LA until they stole Pau? Has any top 20 player played with a worse roster than LeBron did in Cleveland? He's mentally weak at times but to hold him to a standard that doesn't exist is unfair.

 

Name one star who stuck by a roster that bad. Most cause trouble. LeBron did the best he could do until the final Boston series. What would Jordan have done if Jerry Krause loaded up a team full of Boobie Gibsons and Andersen Varajaos for the Bulls to take on the Bad Boys with?

Free agency and a small number of teams in the league prevented this before. Look at the rosters before 1990. Every champion had 3 or 4 hall of famers. Barkley and Malone were older but they were the first to go somewhere else title hunting.

 

Wasn't Kobe going to leave LA until they stole Pau? Has any top 20 player played with a worse roster than LeBron did in Cleveland? He's mentally weak at times but to hold him to a standard that doesn't exist is unfair.

 

Name one star who stuck by a roster that bad. Most cause trouble. LeBron did the best he could do until the final Boston series. What would Jordan have done if Jerry Krause loaded up a team full of Boobie Gibsons and Andersen Varajaos for the Bulls to take on the Bad Boys with?

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. With the way free agency is now and how the collective bargaining agreement has changed along with the mentality of players changing it isn't like how it used to be. For all of the MJ hangers on, if they believe that MJ wouldn't have gone to play with Ewing or Barkley had the opportunity presented itself back in 1989 then they are being naive. It isn't even about Jerry Krause or GMs IMO. It is about the players. CP3 and Howard looking to team up? That's today's mentality. It's actually smart IMO. Why wouldn't you sacrfiice money for titles? I would. And I think if MJ and Magic and Bird had thought of it first back in the day they'd have done the same thing as well.

Why wouldn't you sacrfiice money for titles? I would. And I think if MJ and Magic and Bird had thought of it first back in the day they'd have done the same thing as well.

 

I'm not sure that Jordan's ego would have allowed him to make such a move.

I'm not sure that Jordan's ego would have allowed him to make such a move.

 

That is a strong possibility also. In his mind he probably never needed Pippen.

Lebron is in his fourth finals in his first 10 seasons winning 1 title in his 9th season. To compare apples to apples need to wait until after his 14th season as that was the last year either Kobe or MJ won a title.

 

I looked at the chart I was reading wrong, but my point remains the same. At similar points in their careers, MJ and Kobe had 3x as many rings as LeBron. For the people comparing him to, and in some cases saying he is better than those two is ludicrous to me.

Each career is different. As of today Jordan's career is better than Kobe's and Kobe's is better than LeBron's.

 

And IMHO, LeBron needs 4 more rings before anybody should even begin saying he's better than either of those two.

And IMHO, LeBron needs 4 more rings before anybody should even begin saying he's better than either of those two.

 

I don't think he needs to match Kobe to end up the more legendary player. Kobe is one of the all time greats and has the championships to prove it, but like some have already said his first titles had just as much to do with Shaq than they did Kobe (maybe even more to do with Shaq). In fact out of those five championships Kobe only has two finals MVP's. So how can you be one of the best ever when you weren't even considered the best player on three out of five championship teams?

I don't think he needs to match Kobe to end up the more legendary player. Kobe is one of the all time greats and has the championships to prove it, but like some have already said his first titles had just as much to do with Shaq than they did Kobe (maybe even more to do with Shaq). In fact out of those five championships Kobe only has two finals MVP's. So how can you be one of the best ever when you weren't even considered the best player on three out of five championship teams?

 

LeBron didn't win a title until he got to Miami with Wade and Bosh? So I'm not sure how you can discredit Kobe's first ring and not LeBron's...

 

And as for you Finals MVPs question. If things continue how they have the last few games in this series, Dwayne Wade could be named the Finals MVP... So LeBron would have only been considered (by your logic) the best player on one of his two championship teams.

LeBron didn't win a title until he got to Miami with Wade and Bosh? So I'm not sure how you can discredit Kobe's first ring and not LeBron's...

 

And as for you Finals MVPs question. If things continue how they have the last few games in this series, Dwayne Wade could be named the Finals MVP... So LeBron would have only been considered (by your logic) the best player on one of his two championship teams.

 

Because clearly Lebron has been the better of the three the past three seasons. For Kobe's first few rings you could argue Shaq was the better player. I don't even think there's an argument for anyone else on Miami's teams to be better than Lebron these last three seasons, he is coming off two great MVP seasons with this one being very special. He hasn't played that way in this Finals though, which will hurt him. Like you said, unless he comes out and smokes the next two games D Wade would be the MVP if they were to win somehow. But when comparing the fact Lebron played with great players, Kobe also had Shaq who at the time was the most dominant post player to ever play. Not to mention Robert Horry who is arguably the most clutch role player in playoff history, as well as D Fish who was also known to show up large in big games. So in terms of talent, Miami's teams aren't any better than those Lakers teams, in fact those Lakers teams may even be better. Fact of the matter was it was Shaq who took home all the hardware for those series', not Kobe. Kobe always gets credit for the rings, and rightfully so, but history says he was not the best player on any of those first three championships.

 

Adding to that is the fact Kobe only has one MVP where Lebron already has 4. Kobe has the ring advantage, but in terms of legacy I don't see why Lebron would have to tie Kobe to be considered on the same level.

Because clearly Lebron has been the better of the three the past three seasons. For Kobe's first few rings you could argue Shaq was the better player. I don't even think there's an argument for anyone else on Miami's teams to be better than Lebron these last three seasons, he is coming off two great MVP seasons with this one being very special. He hasn't played that way in this Finals though, which will hurt him. Like you said, unless he comes out and smokes the next two games D Wade would be the MVP if they were to win somehow. But when comparing the fact Lebron played with great players, Kobe also had Shaq who at the time was the most dominant post player to ever play. Not to mention Robert Horry who is arguably the most clutch role player in playoff history, as well as D Fish who was also known to show up large in big games. So in terms of talent, Miami's teams aren't any better than those Lakers teams, in fact those Lakers teams may even be better. Fact of the matter was it was Shaq who took home all the hardware for those series', not Kobe. Kobe always gets credit for the rings, and rightfully so, but history says he was not the best player on any of those first three championships.

 

Adding to that is the fact Kobe only has one MVP where Lebron already has 4. Kobe has the ring advantage, but in terms of legacy I don't see why Lebron would have to tie Kobe to be considered on the same level.

 

Both players had other good players around them. So that argument to or for either guy has to be thrown out, IMO. Neither one did it by himself. At the end of the day, for the majority of people, it comes down to rings. Shaq may have won those MVP's, but do the Lakers win the titles without Kobe? Who knows at this point. Does Miami win last year without LeBron?

 

LeBron lovers will always say he's as good if not better than Kobe. Kobe lovers will say not a chance, he doesn't have the rings. That's the reality of the situation. I'm a ring kinda guy. LeBron, in my eyes, still has quite a ways to go before he is on the level of Kobe, and then MJ.

Because clearly Lebron has been the better of the three the past three seasons. For Kobe's first few rings you could argue Shaq was the better player. I don't even think there's an argument for anyone else on Miami's teams to be better than Lebron these last three seasons, he is coming off two great MVP seasons with this one being very special. He hasn't played that way in this Finals though, which will hurt him. Like you said, unless he comes out and smokes the next two games D Wade would be the MVP if they were to win somehow. But when comparing the fact Lebron played with great players, Kobe also had Shaq who at the time was the most dominant post player to ever play. Not to mention Robert Horry who is arguably the most clutch role player in playoff history, as well as D Fish who was also known to show up large in big games. So in terms of talent, Miami's teams aren't any better than those Lakers teams, in fact those Lakers teams may even be better. Fact of the matter was it was Shaq who took home all the hardware for those series', not Kobe. Kobe always gets credit for the rings, and rightfully so, but history says he was not the best player on any of those first three championships.

 

Adding to that is the fact Kobe only has one MVP where Lebron already has 4. Kobe has the ring advantage, but in terms of legacy I don't see why Lebron would have to tie Kobe to be considered on the same level.

In modern day basketball the present Miami Heat team is the most talented ever without question. Robert Horry in the twilight of his career with a Derek Fisher who has always been known as a clutch shooter at crucial times but bad at everything else does not compare to having another all-pro caliber player, Ray Allen (another HOFer), and array of shooters.

In modern day basketball the present Miami Heat team is the most talented ever without question. Robert Horry in the twilight of his career with a Derek Fisher who has always been known as a clutch shooter at crucial times but bad at everything else does not compare to having another all-pro caliber player, Ray Allen (another HOFer), and array of shooters.

 

On paper maybe, but clearly they have not played like one of the best teams ever in the last two playoff series'. Much like this years Lakers team I think on paper they look unbeatable, but the product on the court hasn't lived up to the billing. Going by what Bosh done in Toronto, Wade in Miami, and Lebron in Cleveland, yeah those three teaming up should have tore through everything in hoops. BUT, as we have learned it takes more than four or five guys to be dominant. Great "teams" who played "team basketball" like the Mavs and Spurs have proven sometimes a well rounded team is in fact better than a team with three or four all-stars (as crazy as it sounds). IMO those early 2000's Lakers teams were all very well rounded, and even though they may have just had two all-stars instead of three, they were more well rounded as a team.

Has anyone ever questioned if LeBron is too talented for his own good? Like in Cleveland, his team now will often get lost in just watching him or waiting for him to make a play. Every player on the roster is built to play off his talents so when he is not flowing, the team is not flowing. It took him nearly a decade to figure out he was more valuable inside the arc so he is culpable as well.

Both players had other good players around them. So that argument to or for either guy has to be thrown out, IMO. Neither one did it by himself. At the end of the day, for the majority of people, it comes down to rings. Shaq may have won those MVP's, but do the Lakers win the titles without Kobe? Who knows at this point. Does Miami win last year without LeBron?

 

LeBron lovers will always say he's as good if not better than Kobe. Kobe lovers will say not a chance, he doesn't have the rings. That's the reality of the situation. I'm a ring kinda guy. LeBron, in my eyes, still has quite a ways to go before he is on the level of Kobe, and then MJ.

 

 

 

All I' saying is at the end of the day which line is better?

 

5 championships

1 League MVP

2 Finals MVP's

 

 

4 Championships

5-6+ League MVP's

3-4 Finals MVP's

 

?

 

 

Without looking and knowing the argument I would go with player 2 anyday of the week. Anyone would. But like you said Kobe fans are going to be Kobe homers, Lebron fans are going to be Lebron homers. I totally understand it, been dealing with it for almost a decade now.