My point is simply that this myth of "the good ole days" is simply that, a myth. Maybe some shards of truth, with some embellishment, and some complete falsehood. Really nice to think about it, really naive to believe it...

By the way, Mt Ref is truly saying he wants it to go back to the days where only Christianity was recognized as being acceptable. The rest is obfuscation.

By the way, Mt Ref is truly saying he wants it to go back to the days where only Christianity was recognized as being acceptable. The rest is obfuscation.

 

Thanks, now I have to lokk a word up smarty pants...

By the way, Mt Ref is truly saying he wants it to go back to the days where only Christianity was recognized as being acceptable. The rest is obfuscation.

1st time I have ever had to look up a word on here. Good job:thumb:

1st time I have ever had to look up a word on here. Good job:thumb:

 

And used perfectly at that. :lol:

In my case and I assume in most the point being made is there has NEVER been a time that didn't have problems. It's whitewashing history.

 

I think it is human nature to look in the past and recall the better times than the worse times. The same grandfather I have who probably views his youth back in years between WWI and WWII as a better time than today probably had to listen to his grandfathers talk about how their youth back in the mid to late 1800's were much better, moral days than the same period of time. Now, I say this as a white Catholic. My guess is older minorities and Jews probably don't agree we my statement since their youths were have been during segregation (most minorites) and a time when non Christians were seen as suspect at best.

If the folks arguing with Mountain Ref don't think some values and morals have slid downward in the last several decades, those folks are kidding themselves or more likely, just wanting to argue with Mountain Ref given his rather "extreme" positions and posts on here and the way overly broad nature of his OP. Yes there have been some big improvements in the rights of blacks, women etc. Which is fantastic. No doubt about that.

 

Would those arguing/disagreeing with Mountain Ref agree or disagree that there has been, since the 60s, 70s or even 80s:

 

1. a decline of driving courtesy;

2. an increase in teen pregnancies;

3. an increase in drug use by teenagers;

4. an increase in binge alcohol drinking by college kids;

5. an increase in black on black crime;

6. an increase in single parent families (and associated problems resulting therefrom);

7. a decrease in respect towards those in "authority";

8. an increase in the lack of trust towards our elected officials;

9. a decrease in personal responsibility;

10. an increase in the abuse and corruption of entitlement programs?

 

And please for the love of Pete, no one needs to point out that there were problems back in those eras. Duh. Of course there were. Some things, important things, have improved from those eras, thank goodness. Some values have actually improved (ie, tolerance for people of other races, ethnicity, religions, and gender; respect towards the military; etc.). But that doesn't negate the fact that some values and beliefs have eroded (which was my "take away" from Mountain Ref's OP) and need to be addressed by society. Frankly, I'd rather our govt stay out of the morals and values arena, other than to not impede or block efforts of churches, communities, businesses and people to address those values that have eroded.

 

All good points. But, just look what has happened in the past couple of decades right under your nose. Did you just never go to Newport when you were young? This can be argued until the cows come home. Some things are better, some things are worse. There never was a good ole day, and for now there won't be one.

I think it is human nature to look in the past and recall the better times than the worse times. The same grandfather I have who probably views his youth back in years between WWI and WWII as a better time than today probably had to listen to his grandfathers talk about how their youth back in the mid to late 1800's were much better, moral days than the same period of time. Now, I say this as a white Catholic. My guess is older minorities and Jews probably don't agree we my statement since their youths were have been during segregation (most minorites) and a time when non Christians were seen as suspect at best.

 

I completely get that.

 

I also think that those that engage in a trip down memory lane need to remember all of it.

And used perfectly at that. :lol:

 

indeed

In my case and I assume in most the point being made is there has NEVER been a time that didn't have problems. It's whitewashing history.

 

So we're not arguing to argue. We're pointing out the fallacy of Mt Ref's position.

 

Morals are subjective. You might be argue that people's language has gotten worse. You might argue that gratuitous sex on film is now more widely accepted. Others would say they will trade that decline for more acceptance of humans as humans instead of humans as a category.

 

We can go tit-for-tat all day. That's the point.

 

I agree with you and other that there have always been problems. Is that a justification for accepting today's problems and not addressing them? As I'm sure you'd agree, of course not. So where we (society) see problems, let's address them and not just sweep them under the rug or accept them because "there have always been problems". Wasn't the OP all about what America should do to address those problems? Don't agree with his solution, but even if I don't agree with his solution, that doesn't mean the problems don't exist.

 

Points made by others are also valid. No doubt the expansive media brings some problems to light today that existed more quietly in the past. But from my own observations over my 55 years, some values have eroded. I've seen it; I've lived it; hell, I may have been part of it. So I'm not basing my belief that I've seen a decline in certain values and beliefs on what I've seen on TV, read in the newspapers or from other media sources.

 

Not sure what to think of the sentence (or thought) that morals are subjective. Technically you are right on an individual basis, but when a majority of society has determined that certain beliefs and practices are unacceptable (racism for example), do we do nothing about itand rationalize the behavior by saying morals are subjective? I'm pretty sure you would say, of course not. Should the list of things I mentioned be dealt with any differently if society thinks those things are becoming a problem? I think you'd agree that we need to deal with those problems too.

I agree with you and other that there have always been problems. Is that a justification for accepting today's problems and not addressing them? As I'm sure you'd agree, of course not. So where we (society) see problems, let's address them and not just sweep them under the rug or accept them because "there have always been problems". Wasn't the OP all about what America should do to address those problems? Don't agree with his solution, but even if I don't agree with his solution, that doesn't mean the problems don't exist.

 

Points made by others are also valid. No doubt the expansive media brings some problems to light today that existed more quietly in the past. But from my own observations over my 55 years, some values have eroded. I've seen it; I've lived it; hell, I may have been part of it. So I'm not basing my belief that I've seen a decline in certain values and beliefs on what I've seen on TV, read in the newspapers or from other media sources.

 

Not sure what to think of the sentence (or thought) that morals are subjective. Technically you are right on an individual basis, but when a majority of society has determined that certain beliefs and practices are unacceptable (racism for example), do we do nothing about itand rationalize the behavior by saying morals are subjective? I'm pretty sure you would say, of course not. Should the list of things I mentioned be dealt with any differently if society thinks those things are becoming a problem? I think you'd agree that we need to deal with those problems too.

 

I do not believe anyone would argue with your overarching theme of "let's not ignore today's issues."

 

All problems need to be dealt with constantly.

Go backwards for what? I have no complaints whatsoever about the world we live in today. You can't take a black dude and expect him to go backwards. All I see is race and the horrible racial relations that our government refused to do anything about until the 1960s and 1970s. What the hell kind of morals and values are you talking about?

 

So you choose to pick one issue, although it was certainly a bad one, to put the condition of our society today as being the best it ever has been. I disagree heavily. The problem with the inequal treatment of the races and women may be the only issues that our society takes a higher stand on today. Almost any issue that has to do with morality is heading the wrong direction in this country, not to mention overall work ethic, acountability, and self-reliance. When did Americans start to believe that it was anyone's responsibility other than their own to provide for their interest? When did Americans start to feel this sense of entitlement that we have in our society? If citizens operated in the past the way they are in mass right now, we would have lost WWII and you would have never had to worry about a Civil Rights Movement. People wouldn't have been willing to sacrafice anything of themselves for the common interest of society.

...If citizens operated in the past the way they are in mass right now, we would have lost WWII and you would have never had to worry about a Civil Rights Movement. People wouldn't have been willing to sacrafice anything of themselves for the common interest of society.

 

I can't speak for everything you said, but I think it's an unfair assumption that today's citizenry wouldn't have won World War II. If anything, part of the problem many have in our country when it comes to the military is we have been placed in conflicts with no declaration of war, no real measurable goals for what was hoped to be accomplished, and many times conflicts that weren't "winnable" in the minds of people. World War II was the total opposite of that. Faced with a legitimate war, legitimately declared, against a legitimate nation/enemy, I think the American people would respond differently. Instead we are involved in repeated conflicts and operations, often fought by contractors as much as soldiers, paid for by money that we don't have, and therefore most citizens aren't really gung-ho for it.

I haven't really read much of this thread... although I can guess what a lot of it was about. I will say this about the title at least:

 

The word "nationalist" scares the hell out of me and it should scare the hell out of you, too.

I can't speak for everything you said, but I think it's an unfair assumption that today's citizenry wouldn't have won World War II. If anything, part of the problem many have in our country when it comes to the military is we have been placed in conflicts with no declaration of war, no real measurable goals for what was hoped to be accomplished, and many times conflicts that weren't "winnable" in the minds of people. World War II was the total opposite of that. Faced with a legitimate war, legitimately declared, against a legitimate nation/enemy, I think the American people would respond differently. Instead we are involved in repeated conflicts and operations, often fought by contractors as much as soldiers, paid for by money that we don't have, and therefore most citizens aren't really gung-ho for it.

 

I agree with many of your points, but would say in my opinion we haven't won a war in a long time, and we have been in many. Another way our past was better than the present.