This gets talked about so much, so I figured it needed its own thread. People all the time around here get on Stubbs, and say he is pathetic and how the Reds need a legitmate leadoff man. My question to you all is, whom all is better leadoff hitters than him? Some people act like all these teams have great leadoff hitters and that is just not true. Yes if we could have a Reyes type that would be nice. However other than a few guys like that, our leadoff guy in Stubbs produces much more than most teams leadoff guys. I mentioned all this in the other thread and then Hammertime provided the stats.

 

Stubbs among leadoff batters: runs (1st), HR (2nd), RBI (T-2nd), SB (4th), K (1st), BB (T-2nd)

 

Times on base, as leadoff hitter (Hits+walks)

112 Jose Reyes

100 Rickie Weeks

99 Drew Stubbs

93 Michael Bourn

92 Denard Span

91 Jacoby Ellsbury

89 Ichiro Suzuki

 

Read more: http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lances...#ixzz1P4jNnJGT

 

In a leadoff hitter you want a guy who can get on base, and get in scoring position for you best hitters behind them. It seems to me stats prove that Stubbs is one of the best to do that, even with the strikeouts. I think most teams would love to have their leadoff hitters producing the stats Stubbs has. The problem is people focus on the strikeouts, and fail to notice all the other areas that he does very well in. Most importantly he is one of the best leadoff hitters in getting on base, and stealing bases. That is all you can ask from you leadoff hitters.

I like Stubbs. I don' t think he is the prototypical leadoff man, but could be the best the Reds have at the moment to fill the role. The problem with this spot is there are a couple of guys that folks can't get out of their heads at the top of the lineup-Rickey Henderson-unbelieveable hall of Fame talent, and Pete Rose. IMO the job of the leadoff man is to get on base and set the table for the big boys. The area Stubbs needs to work on is cutting down his strikeouts, but heck all of the Reds do. Put the ball in play see what happens. If Stubbs would learn to be an average bunter, he would be in the all star game every season, and folks around here would revere the guy.

 

So I am with you futurecoach on this one 100%. Refreshing to see you know baseball-football-now that is another matter. j/k

Given the power numbers would you rather see Stubbs hitting in the leadoff or somewhere down around 6th where he could really drive in runs? I have no problem with anything that Stubbs does in the leadoff spot except strikeouts and his inability to bunt. Traditionally a leadoff hitter has been a good contact guy. Maybe he can learn to cut down on the Ks afterall he is still only 26 years old and only in his 3rd year, (2nd full). It just baffles me though that the Red's organization doesn't focus more on guys with great speed and their bunting skills. Afterall Stubbs never really showed any power numbers in the minors and you would think they were looking at him as more of a guy that would utilize his great speed.

I just feel it could be a lot worse.

I just feel it could be a lot worse.

 

Just take a look at the Reds rosters in the 2000's. Should make us Freel a lot better about Stubbs.

Just take a look at the Reds rosters in the 2000's. Should make us Freel a lot better about Stubbs.

 

But we are still trying to foget the 2000s.

Just take a look at the Reds rosters in the 2000's. Should make us Freel a lot better about Stubbs.

 

Nice. :lol:

We often get hung up on stereotypes and Ks.

 

I simply look at relative production. Sure we 'd like Stubbs to decrease his Ks. However, as pointed out in post 1, he's getting the job done by comparison. The name of the game is to generate runs and he's doing that.

Given the power numbers would you rather see Stubbs hitting in the leadoff or somewhere down around 6th where he could really drive in runs? I have no problem with anything that Stubbs does in the leadoff spot except strikeouts and his inability to bunt. Traditionally a leadoff hitter has been a good contact guy. Maybe he can learn to cut down on the Ks afterall he is still only 26 years old and only in his 3rd year, (2nd full). It just baffles me though that the Red's organization doesn't focus more on guys with great speed and their bunting skills. Afterall Stubbs never really showed any power numbers in the minors and you would think they were looking at him as more of a guy that would utilize his great speed.

 

If say we had a leadoff guy like Reyes here, then yes 6th or 7th would be a good spot for him. However other than a few people like Reyes, there is not really many people who would actually do better at the leadoff spot. I mean we all would love to see him strikeout less, and at least put the ball in play. However all the pitches he sometimes takes, also helps in him being one of the top guys in walks for leadoff hitters. So even though he doesn't put it in play as much as we like, he still does a great job at finding away to get on base. Which is what you want from your leadoff guy.

Well, almost 2 months later how many still feel Stubbs is getting it done in the leadoff role?

 

At best he is very, very average.

Well, almost 2 months later how many still feel Stubbs is getting it done in the leadoff role?

 

At best he is very, very average.

I have no problem with anything that Stubbs does in the leadoff spot except strikeouts and his inability to bunt.

 

It's not that he can't bunt, but rather he doesn't appear to show any interest in it.

Stubbs is our leadoff man and is going to strikeout 200 times. I don't think that any team want their lead off man striking out a third of the time. Who really cares if he leads in HR and RBI's. You want him to be in the top five in avg, walks, runs scored and maybe sb.

Stubbs is our leadoff man and is going to strikeout 200 times. I don't think that any team want their lead off man striking out a third of the time. Who really cares if he leads in HR and RBI's. You want him to be in the top five in avg, walks, runs scored and maybe sb.

 

He now longer leads in any category except for strikeouts.

Stubbs is our leadoff man and is going to strikeout 200 times. I don't think that any team want their lead off man striking out a third of the time. Who really cares if he leads in HR and RBI's. You want him to be in the top five in avg, walks, runs scored and maybe sb.

At the time that this was posted he was in the top 5 in some of the area's you were talking about. He was first in runs scored which matters more than anything, 2nd in walks, and in top 5 in stolen bases. Your thing about average really does not mean much, its about OBP for leadoff hitters. At the time he was doing decent with that too, since he was one of the best at getting walks. So this thread did have a good purpose at the time, because he was doing what you wanted out of a leadoff hitter. People just couldnt' get pass the strikeouts, even though he was doing everything else you wanted out of a leadoff hitter.

 

Obviously since then he has not done well in of those categories, and leadoff is very much a concern now. However at the time, people were still complaining, and he was doing the job at leadoff hitter. For me he reminds me a lot of Mike Cameron. Most people on here probably don't remember that back when we had Mike Cameron, he usually led baseball in strikeouts. People complained about that back then too, and he ended up having a pretty solid baseball career. He actually helped teams better than who we traded him for in Griffey. It took Cameron a few years of playing at the Major League level, to finally start to improve at that. He still was a guy who did strike out quite a bit, but did get better at it and had a solid career as a leadoff hitter for teams, and it's still going just not as a leadoff hitter now that he is older. I think Stubbs will end up a lot like him, or at least I hope so.