Bottom line ... a .326 OBP is pretty poor for a leadoff hitter. That figure is right in line with his career mark, and since he's 26 (he turns 27 in two months) he isn't real likely to make dramatic improvement.

 

Stubbs is a solid player in some respects. He has some power, is a fine athlete with speed and plays fine defense. Asking him to also play a key role in the offense is also a bit much to ask of him. Unfortunately, he has a manager that has done that often in his tenure with the Cubs and Reds.

For me he reminds me a lot of Mike Cameron. Most people on here probably don't remember that back when we had Mike Cameron, he usually led baseball in strikeouts. People complained about that back then too, and he ended up having a pretty solid baseball career. He actually helped teams better than who we traded him for in Griffey. It took Cameron a few years of playing at the Major League level, to finally start to improve at that. He still was a guy who did strike out quite a bit, but did get better at it and had a solid career as a leadoff hitter for teams, and it's still going just not as a leadoff hitter now that he is older. I think Stubbs will end up a lot like him, or at least I hope so.

A valid comparison ... Stubbs' OBP is the only thing keeping him from becoming a Cameron-type player, which isn't a bad thing at all.

At the time that this was posted he was in the top 5 in some of the area's you were talking about. He was first in runs scored which matters more than anything, 2nd in walks, and in top 5 in stolen bases. Your thing about average really does not mean much, its about OBP for leadoff hitters. At the time he was doing decent with that too, since he was one of the best at getting walks. So this thread did have a good purpose at the time, because he was doing what you wanted out of a leadoff hitter. People just couldnt' get pass the strikeouts, even though he was doing everything else you wanted out of a leadoff hitter.

 

Obviously since then he has not done well in of those categories, and leadoff is very much a concern now. However at the time, people were still complaining, and he was doing the job at leadoff hitter. For me he reminds me a lot of Mike Cameron. Most people on here probably don't remember that back when we had Mike Cameron, he usually led baseball in strikeouts. People complained about that back then too, and he ended up having a pretty solid baseball career. He actually helped teams better than who we traded him for in Griffey. It took Cameron a few years of playing at the Major League level, to finally start to improve at that. He still was a guy who did strike out quite a bit, but did get better at it and had a solid career as a leadoff hitter for teams, and it's still going just not as a leadoff hitter now that he is older. I think Stubbs will end up a lot like him, or at least I hope so.

 

What some of us were trying to point out, and that you are finally starting to see, is that because of the strikeouts Stubbs was not nearly as good as his numbers looked. Batting average on balls in play is a state that generally stays constant across the league. When a player's BA on balls put in play is abnormally high or low for a couple of months it can make them look better or worse than they actually are. However, over the course of a season it tends to even out, which is what has happened to Stubbs. As long as he continues to strikeout at near record rates he has little chance of becoming even a decent leadoff hitter. A lot of us saw that a long time ago and weren't fooled by a couple of lucky months. It looks like you are finally starting to see it too.

Is Sappelt the answer at leadoff? I like what I see so far.

At the time that this was posted he was in the top 5 in some of the area's you were talking about. He was first in runs scored which matters more than anything, 2nd in walks, and in top 5 in stolen bases. Your thing about average really does not mean much, its about OBP for leadoff hitters. At the time he was doing decent with that too, since he was one of the best at getting walks. So this thread did have a good purpose at the time, because he was doing what you wanted out of a leadoff hitter. People just couldnt' get pass the strikeouts, even though he was doing everything else you wanted out of a leadoff hitter.

 

Obviously since then he has not done well in of those categories, and leadoff is very much a concern now. However at the time, people were still complaining, and he was doing the job at leadoff hitter. For me he reminds me a lot of Mike Cameron. Most people on here probably don't remember that back when we had Mike Cameron, he usually led baseball in strikeouts. People complained about that back then too, and he ended up having a pretty solid baseball career. He actually helped teams better than who we traded him for in Griffey. It took Cameron a few years of playing at the Major League level, to finally start to improve at that. He still was a guy who did strike out quite a bit, but did get better at it and had a solid career as a leadoff hitter for teams, and it's still going just not as a leadoff hitter now that he is older. I think Stubbs will end up a lot like him, or at least I hope so.

You do realize, don't you that Mike Cameron has only batted leadoff in 165 out of 1932 career games don't you? Obviously not from your post. However, your comparison to Cameron perfectly proves my point. Cameron has a .249 career batting average, a .338 career on base percentage and NEVER scored 100 runs in a season. Those numbers remind me a lot of Stubbs. Stubbs is a very mediocre at best leadoff hitter, but still a useful player. He also, however, does not hit well with runners in scoring position so he shouldn't be hitting in any of the RBI producing spots in the order either. It would be nice if the Reds could afford to hit him 8th, because 8th or 9th is where he should be hitting on a good team.

Is Sappelt the answer at leadoff? I like what I see so far.

 

 

I think it might be. The little I saw of him during the spring, he reminds me a lot of Billy Hatcher. I'm hoping Dusty, and the Reds give him a chance the rest of the year to show what he can do.

You do realize, don't you that Mike Cameron has only batted leadoff in 165 out of 1932 career games don't you? Obviously not from your post. However, your comparison to Cameron perfectly proves my point. Cameron has a .249 career batting average, a .338 career on base percentage and NEVER scored 100 runs in a season. Those numbers remind me a lot of Stubbs. Stubbs is a very mediocre at best leadoff hitter, but still a useful player. He also, however, does not hit well with runners in scoring position so he shouldn't be hitting in any of the RBI producing spots in the order either. It would be nice if the Reds could afford to hit him 8th, because 8th or 9th is where he should be hitting on a good team.

 

I admit I was wrong, I thought Cameron played more at leadoff than that in his career. However Cameron has had a long career in the Major Leagues, and has done it as a starter for a lot of teams. So obviously he has done something right in his career to have been playing this long, and to have been wanted this long. I would be more than happy if Stubbs puts a career together like him. Even though I do believe Stubbs has the potential to put up better numbers than Cameron did.

I admit I was wrong, I thought Cameron played more at leadoff than that in his career. However Cameron has had a long career in the Major Leagues, and has done it as a starter for a lot of teams. So obviously he has done something right in his career to have been playing this long, and to have been wanted this long. I would be more than happy if Stubbs puts a career together like him. Even though I do believe Stubbs has the potential to put up better numbers than Cameron did.

 

I never said that Stubbs, couldn't or won't have a good Major League career. Just that he is not suited to be a leadoff hitter, and honestly until he can cut down on the strikeouts to less than 200 a season levels, he shouldn't be hitting in an RBI producing spot either. If we were taking about a 35+ homer a year guy I could live with the strikeouts in the 5 or 6 hole. As it stands right now he needs to be hitting 8th. That doesn't mean he isn't useful, but, like Cameron he needs to be moved from the leadoff spot.

How old is Sappelt? I really liked what I saw out of him yesterday.

Edited August 8, 201115 yr by UKMustangFan

How old is Sapplet? I really liked what I saw out of him yesterday.

 

I think I read that he is 24. He has hit over .300 at every level so far and his OBP has been in the .375 range. Prototypical lead off hitter. If he can play LF and bat leadoff, that would be huge. IMO, the two most important slots in your batting order are leadoff and cleanup.

I think I read that he is 24. He has hit over .300 at every level so far and his OBP has been in the .375 range. Prototypical lead off hitter. If he can play LF and bat leadoff, that would be huge. IMO, the two most important slots in your batting order are leadoff and cleanup.

 

Something I was wondering about....If Sappelt can be the LF and leadoff man, could it be beneficial to Stubbs to sandwich him in the cleanup spot behind Votto and in front of Phillips? I don't know if he's suited to it, but that would hopefully allow him to get more fastballs, and allow him to tap into his power more. Just a thought to throw around.

How old is Sapplet? I really liked what I saw out of him yesterday.

Sappelt is 24.

Something I was wondering about....If Sappelt can be the LF and leadoff man, could it be beneficial to Stubbs to sandwich him in the cleanup spot behind Votto and in front of Phillips? I don't know if he's suited to it, but that would hopefully allow him to get more fastballs, and allow him to tap into his power more. Just a thought to throw around.

 

Easy answer ... would you pitch around Votto to get to Stubbs? I think that is an obvious yes. He is hitting under .200 this year with runners in scoring position. I think 6 or 7 in the order is where Stubbs fits very nicely.

Something I was wondering about....If Sappelt can be the LF and leadoff man, could it be beneficial to Stubbs to sandwich him in the cleanup spot behind Votto and in front of Phillips? I don't know if he's suited to it, but that would hopefully allow him to get more fastballs, and allow him to tap into his power more. Just a thought to throw around.

 

Unless he can find a way to quit swinging and missing so much I'm not sure it would help. After all, one thing he does very well is steal/run the bases. He's been batting leadoff and most pitchers certainly don't want to walk him with Votto, Phillips coming up so he gets plenty of pitches to hit now. He just doesn't hit them. Also, for his career he has only hit .221 with runners in scoring position and .236 with men on base period and he has stuck out more than 1/3 of the time in either of those situations. He needs to be hitting 7th or 8th.

Stubbs would fit in well in the 7 spot, where his speed can be utilized in the lower part of the order. Asking him to hit leadoff is asking too much of him.