I am not that great at debating. I tend to back off, because I don't have all the facts. And BGP can be extremely initimdating if you do not have your EXCEL fact spreadsheet ready. I am one of the "not so intelligent" yet hard core pro-life people.

My two cents--to stir up the pot---

1) The "life-long Haunting" of abortion that affects both the mothers and the fathers that made that choice. The what ifs, the "woulda, shoulda, coulda" the guilt. It is there, it is forever woven into their idenity either outwardly or inwardly or both. So many of those women wish they had not made that choice, MAYBE EVEN WISH THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE?

2) This is BGP. We all signed on here because we love sports. How many of our much admired sports heros were born to single teenage mothers? So glad they chose life! Basketball and Football would not be the same. So glad those moms struggled and found deep within themselves that "survival of the fittest" mentality--to figure out a way to raise their children, even if others told them to choose another way.

3) How many other amazing human beings could have been given a chance, if abortion was not so accepted and funded and "encouraged" because it is cheaper than welfare for the single mom?

Look. You're either committed to believing it's murder or you're not. You can't say it's murder but then not be willing to punish the murderer like the guy who shoots a 7-year-old boy.

Like I said Clyde.. Tough question.. But you have convinced me that punishment is in order... Also the person that performs the abortion should be put away for a long long time...

I wish this post was taken more seriously. It’s an excellent articulation of one of the problems with this abortion and Planned Parenthood debate. For me, abortion is a deeply complex issue and one I can’t speak about with any level of certainty. I don’t believe either side of the debate has the absolute correct answer either. But, I think a harder look at why abortions occur, how to prevent them, and how we deal with children given up after birth is both necessary and nearly ignored in the clamor to demonize the other side.

 

RM expresses her views well & I did take them seriously. I just strongly disagree with them. I also strongly disagree that abortion is a "complex issue." If there is innocent life inside that womb, then that's my primary concern. For me, I view those who participate in abortion in the same light as the woman who drowned her five kids in the bathtub, or the lady that locked her kids in the car & then backed the car into the pond (Susan Smith, I think was her name).

 

Why are we called upon to delve into the "roots of the issue." Do I really need to closely examine why it is that people think killing babies should be legal? Do I even want to do that? No, because as Colonel's statistics pointed out, the overwhelming vast majority of abortions occur because a woman is unwilling to shoulder responsibility for the sexual choices she made.

 

Having read and heard numerous accounts of women who have had abortions, and listening to them as they describe the child in the womb kicking and resisting and thrashing about as the life-ending drugs have been injected...no, I don't want to analyze the whys of this issue. It's the furthest thing from complex in my mind.

RM expresses her views well & I did take them seriously. I just strongly disagree with them. I also strongly disagree that abortion is a "complex issue." If there is innocent life inside that womb, then that's my primary concern. For me, I view those who participate in abortion in the same light as the woman who drowned her five kids in the bathtub, or the lady that locked her kids in the car & then backed the car into the pond (Susan Smith, I think was her name).

 

Why are we called upon to delve into the "roots of the issue." Do I really need to closely examine why it is that people think killing babies should be legal? Do I even want to do that? No, because as Colonel's statistics pointed out, the overwhelming vast majority of abortions occur because a woman is unwilling to shoulder responsibility for the sexual choices she made.

 

Having read and heard numerous accounts of women who have had abortions, and listening to them as they describe the child in the womb kicking and resisting and thrashing about as the life-ending drugs have been injected...no, I don't want to analyze the whys of this issue. It's the furthest thing from complex in my mind.

 

 

I think what you say here has validity. However, regarding the stats, the "whys" are in the reasons people answered the way they did. It's easy to look at the stats and say that the women were unwilling to shoulder the responsibility of the choices she made. The "whys" are: What makes her unwilling? Is it merely inconvenience? What makes it an inconvenience? Is the pregnancy the issue? Or is it the "contributing factors" of the situation? Are the parents supportive of a teen carrying her child to birth? Are the parents of said teen willing to offer support to a teen who will need help caring for the child so she can continue her education? Is the father going to support her during/after? Are the father's parents willing to offer support during/after? And when I say support, I don't just mean financially. Are both sets of parents willing to be emotionally supportive in a case of adoption? That's a big one as well.

 

It's always really easy to look at stats from a set of questions that in no way can completely cover all the "back stories". It's dangerous to make assumptions based only on those stats.

 

Look, I'm going to say it for the umpteenth time. I wish abortion were illegal. And I'm willing to support making it illegal. But I simply don't think that's enough by far.

 

We, as a society, have a tendancy to over-generalize, over-simplify social issues. We complain because of the "lazy bums" that have kids to collect increased welfare benefits. We complain because women choose abortion. We complain because we fund PP, which actually provides low-cost preventative, basic healthcare to millions of women, because they also perform abortions, but that part isn't funded by federal dollars. We're shocked and appalled when a young woman delivers a baby secretly and abandons it. We're horrified when a young mother kills her young child. We simply cannot comprehend that a mother would do that to her child.

 

I could go on and on and on....I have years of experience listening to the "whys". And while I do find the stats interesting, my experience has convinced me that it most definitely is more complex than statistical analysis.

 

We need so much to solve this issue. We need adoption changes. If a baby is given up for adoption, I simply do not think that a birth parent should have the right to change their mind once the baby has been placed. I think adoptions of US babies should be easier. I think that more emphasis needs to be placed on teaching self-respect and sexual responsibility to teens, with the emphasis on abstinence as an honorable choice, not a "loser" choice. I think we need to focus on programs that keep teens in school during their pregnancies, and in those critical months afterward.

 

Some of this is in place through churches. MORE needs to be done. If we want to solve this, it's not going to be largely by government programs. It's going to be by community involvement. REAL community support, not just lip service. It's going to take volunteers and mentors. It's going to take real hours out of our lives, and interaction with "undesirables". It's going to take going into the areas of our cities and towns were we avoid.

 

I wish I could go on here. But, I actually have to get some work done today... :lol:

Like I said Clyde.. Tough question.. But you have convinced me that punishment is in order... Also the person that performs the abortion should be put away for a long long time...

 

It is a tough question and it's one I always pose to those who call abortion "murder." If you truly believe it's murder there should be no qualifying when you talk about punishment. It's either murder or it's not and the punishment should be the same if you think it's the former.

BTW, Beck says PP is only used by "hookers."

 

I can't imagine why Fox dumped him.

Here are two laws that would help. Any man who gets a woman pregnant that results in an abortion spends 5 years in jail. Secondly, any man that gets a woman pregnant out of wedlock is automatically sentenced to one year in jail.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. I have a very close friend who is a great father and tried everything he could to marry the mother of his child. They got engaged, but after she went out on him numerous times he broke off the engagement. Should he be punished for having a child and trying to start a family, but the mother wanting nothing to do with it?

It is a tough question and it's one I always pose to those who call abortion "murder." If you truly believe it's murder there should be no qualifying when you talk about punishment. It's either murder or it's not and the punishment should be the same if you think it's the former.

 

Just a thought, but couldn't it be classified as just what it is? Abortion. If it were made into a law, then people could be charged with abortion which would carry it's own degrees of punishment.

Why are you against abortion? Do you feel that it is taking a human life?

 

There's a whole slew of reasons why I'm against it.

 

Before going any further, I want to once again make it clear that I do not support making abortion illegal. I disagree it, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't have a right to make a choice, I'd just like that choice to always be life.

 

The number one reason I'm against it is the sheer fact that they are denying a human being the right to life.

 

I also think it's a complete load of garbage that abortions are allowed to be performed without the man having a voice in the decision.

 

Finally I feel abortion is yet another form of our society allowing people to skate their responsibilities. You had sex, you now have a child. That's on you, the child is your responsibility, don't look for the government or others to bail you out of your mistakes.

 

And for those reasons, anyone who has a voluntary abortion for reasons other than rape or endangerment of the mothers' life gets no more respect from me than child molestors, pedaphiles, and rapists.

I think what you say here has validity. However, regarding the stats, the "whys" are in the reasons people answered the way they did. It's easy to look at the stats and say that the women were unwilling to shoulder the responsibility of the choices she made. The "whys" are: What makes her unwilling? Is it merely inconvenience? What makes it an inconvenience? Is the pregnancy the issue? Or is it the "contributing factors" of the situation? Are the parents supportive of a teen carrying her child to birth? Are the parents of said teen willing to offer support to a teen who will need help caring for the child so she can continue her education? Is the father going to support her during/after? Are the father's parents willing to offer support during/after? And when I say support, I don't just mean financially. Are both sets of parents willing to be emotionally supportive in a case of adoption? That's a big one as well.

 

It's always really easy to look at stats from a set of questions that in no way can completely cover all the "back stories". It's dangerous to make assumptions based only on those stats.

 

Look, I'm going to say it for the umpteenth time. I wish abortion were illegal. And I'm willing to support making it illegal. But I simply don't think that's enough by far.

 

We, as a society, have a tendancy to over-generalize, over-simplify social issues. We complain because of the "lazy bums" that have kids to collect increased welfare benefits. We complain because women choose abortion. We complain because we fund PP, which actually provides low-cost preventative, basic healthcare to millions of women, because they also perform abortions, but that part isn't funded by federal dollars. We're shocked and appalled when a young woman delivers a baby secretly and abandons it. We're horrified when a young mother kills her young child. We simply cannot comprehend that a mother would do that to her child.

 

I could go on and on and on....I have years of experience listening to the "whys". And while I do find the stats interesting, my experience has convinced me that it most definitely is more complex than statistical analysis.

 

We need so much to solve this issue. We need adoption changes. If a baby is given up for adoption, I simply do not think that a birth parent should have the right to change their mind once the baby has been placed. I think adoptions of US babies should be easier. I think that more emphasis needs to be placed on teaching self-respect and sexual responsibility to teens, with the emphasis on abstinence as an honorable choice, not a "loser" choice. I think we need to focus on programs that keep teens in school during their pregnancies, and in those critical months afterward.

 

Some of this is in place through churches. MORE needs to be done. If we want to solve this, it's not going to be largely by government programs. It's going to be by community involvement. REAL community support, not just lip service. It's going to take volunteers and mentors. It's going to take real hours out of our lives, and interaction with "undesirables". It's going to take going into the areas of our cities and towns were we avoid.

 

I wish I could go on here. But, I actually have to get some work done today... :lol:

 

There's a great deal of this I completely agree with--particularly your comments concerning adoption. I'm not as familiar with the adoption process as you or some others may be. I think the first priority is welcoming and protecting innocent life & the second priority is making sure a child is in a loving home. I would add into that the importance of Crisis Pregnancy centers (there's one I'm aware of in Louisville that does excellent work). I have personally provided financial support for these types of organizations & would like to see churches in particular step up their support of them.

 

As far as the original topic, if Planned Parenthood discontinued providing abortion services, I would not mind at all my tax dollars being funneled to them in order to provide the essential services you have mentioned to those who need it most. But unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon.

There's a whole slew of reasons why I'm against it.

 

Before going any further, I want to once again make it clear that I do not support making abortion illegal. I disagree it, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't have a right to make a choice, I'd just like that choice to always be life.

 

The number one reason I'm against it is the sheer fact that they are denying a human being the right to life.

 

I also think it's a complete load of garbage that abortions are allowed to be performed without the man having a voice in the decision.

 

Finally I feel abortion is yet another form of our society allowing people to skate their responsibilities. You had sex, you now have a child. That's on you, the child is your responsibility, don't look for the government or others to bail you out of your mistakes.

 

And for those reasons, anyone who has a voluntary abortion for reasons other than rape or endangerment of the mothers' life gets no more respect from me than child molestors, pedaphiles, and rapists.

 

OMG, I agree with everything you said. I can not believe it. I really agree with the part of why doesnt a man have a say so in this. If it is his baby also, doesnt he have the right to want it alive. I know he doesnt, but that is wrong.

As a country we are facing a lot of Moral crossroads...I don't go to church a lot and I am not sure about how everything works, but the Bible is a book that has a lot Wisdom written through out it. As a country, I feel we were founded with these principles as our backbone. Unfortunately as we progress forward and drift farther away from those principles we as a country continue to decline.

 

I am a conservative who believes if everyone worked hard and was honest, all things would work out. Put others before self and try not to step on others to get ahead...unfortunately we as a country are getting farther and farther away from that mentality. We have grown so big and socialistic I am not sure we can regain the moral integrity our country was founded on. As history has proved over and over again, when big empires grow opposite of there foundation, they tend to crumble...

I'm copying & pasting this from another document, so I don't know how it will show up on here. This story both inspired & convicted me on many levels.

 

The Cincinnati Enquirer ran a story a few years back about a 41-year-old man from Vietnam who has a fascinating story. The man’s name is Tong Phuoc Phuc, and he is a devout Catholic. Almost a decade ago, Tong’s wife was experiencing severe complications while in labor with their son.

 

Tong was so concerned about his wife and son that he prayed earnestly to God. His prayer went something like this: “Lord, if you spare my wife and child, I vow to find a way to help others in the same situation.”

 

Thankfully, Tong’s wife and son both survived—God had kept His end of the bargain. And now, Tong is determined to spend the rest of his life carrying out his end.

 

In Vietnam, the number of abortions actually exceed the number of births—127,000 abortions in 2007 compared to 111,000 births that same year. And so Tong has decided to do his part to reverse that trend.

 

To begin with, Tong spent much of the family’s savings to purchase some land, so that he could bury the bodies of babies who had been aborted. Today, some seven thousand grave plots are in that property, marked with bright red, pink, and yellow artificial roses. Neighbors thought Tong had lost his mind, but he is just the opposite.

 

Tong also purchased a second house—904 square feet—and he uses that house and his own home to house, feed, and care for mothers who would like to have their babies, but cannot afford them. At the time this article was printed, Tong was caring for thirty-three babies—all under the age of one—and seven new or expecting mothers. The home is filled with pink and blue cribs—each adorned with a cross.

 

The total cost for this is about $1,800 per month. Tong does receive financial assistance from the Catholic church and Buddhist organizations, and also from people who have heard about his work. Altogether, Tong has helped save the lives of over sixty babies, and also provided care for each of their mothers in some fashion.

The alcohol example was for the post that said since the murders are legal the feds should keep paying for them.. So you don't mind that your money supports murder??

What if you do not look at it at murder? I don't at all.

I'm against all federally funded programs, so I don't feel they should fund it. Force the parents to support the children, or take them from their parents.

I'm definitely playing devil's advocate here, but wouldn't that child taken from the parents need to be supported in some form?