As many of you sit here trying to paint this as wholly supported by the citizens of Arizona, I found it interesting that The Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police opposed this. They say they'll carry out their duties to the best of their abilities. But they weren't for this, and THEY'RE the ones who have to enforce it.

 

My guess is their concern is twofold. Will they be putting themselves in the way of a civil lawsuit? Will the time it takes to handle an illegal take time away from other crimes?

My guess is their concern is twofold. Will they be putting themselves in the way of a civil lawsuit? Will the time it takes to handle an illegal take time away from other crimes?

 

Good question. They are attributing the rising crime rate in AZ partly to the huge number of illegals residing there. Maybe one takes care of the other in this case. It's pretty easy for us to sit in good ole NKY and have opinions on this, but in reality we have no clue as to give an astute opinion. There is obviously a huge problem in AZ, and since the Fed turns their heads, a local is addressing it. If it's so off base and wrong they won't last long in office. We'll see.

Good question. They are attributing the rising crime rate in AZ partly to the huge number of illegals residing there. Maybe one takes care of the other in this case. It's pretty easy for us to sit in good ole NKY and have opinions on this, but in reality we have no clue as to give an astute opinion. There is obviously a huge problem in AZ, and since the Fed turns their heads, a local is addressing it. If it's so off base and wrong they won't last long in office. We'll see.

 

I don't think your statement about them not lasting in office is true. First, this was done for political gain first and foremost. Secondly, my guess is the law is going to be challenged quickly as to its constitutionality. Regardless of how that turns out, the people who like it will still vote for the Gov and the people who do not like it will not vote for the Gov.

I don't think your statement about them not lasting in office is true. First, this was done for political gain first and foremost. Secondly, my guess is the law is going to be challenged quickly as to its constitutionality. Regardless of how that turns out, the people who like it will still vote for the Gov and the people who do not like it will not vote for the Gov.

 

That was my point. :thumb: I'm guessing that folks who really won't like it still don't have a vote.

I'm just going to do something I promised myself I wouldn't do. I'm going to "go there".

 

Those of you who refuse to consider the law in Arizona an infringement on a citizen's rights are simply delusional. Most of you are in here frequently espousing the right to live your life without government intrusion. You don't want to be required to buy healthcare, but you admit you have it, and you rail against those who don't as drains on society. You hold your 2nd amendment rights as sacred as you hold your religious beliefs. You don't think people who argue for more gun regulation "understand the serious threat on our constitutional freedoms". You think having to register your gun is a personal intrusion by the government and you think it violates your constitutional rights. The same argument has been made for registering your gun as it is you make for requiring and ID...if you're not doing something wrong, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. But you claim it's bigger than that.

 

You think it's ok for our law enforcement officials to make assumptions based on a person's race, what they wear, where they are. You don't feel that the rights of citizens are going to be impeded. But you are dead wrong. And if the state of our country has become such that it's ok to violate the rights of the majority for the sake of catching those here illegally, then you simply don't believe in the Constitution as a document. You believe in the rights you hold dear.

 

You get angry when I make a joke saying that you should hole up with your guns while wearing your tinfoil hats to deflect government intrusion in your life, but you turn around and make a joke that those of us opposing the law act like it's Nazi Germany and you had to show your papers proving your identity, ethnicity and citizenship.

 

But my joke was much less realistic than what you compare the opposition's viewpoint to be. Much like the citizens of Germany who were willing to turn a blind eye to what was happening in the enforcement of those laws, this law opens the door to the same policy being applied for more than just catching illegals. As an American, I personally am disgusted that American citizens, citizens who come to be in this country because of immigration, find it acceptable that a group of our citizenry can be singled out to "prove their status". To impede the rights of one citizen, no matter what the reason, impedes the rights of ALL.

 

If Arizona in fact has a ratio of 85% illegal, 15% legal Hispanic population, they need to look at the policies they have in place that have not been working. I find it hard to believe there's any way that they can come up with a definitive figure, but who knows? Maybe it's correct. If so, then how are these illegals living in their towns and cities without detection now? And how will this law change that? If they have illegal documents, a cursory review upon randomly stopping them and asking them to produce ID isn't going to change anything.

 

So, I don't want to hear any more about being disgusted with the new health care laws. I don't want to hear one excuse about why requiring gun permits, limits on what types of guns or ammo you can have are, or that registering your guns will violate your constitutional rights.

 

You don't care about the constitutional rights of ALL Americans. You care only that what you hold precious is not trampled on.

 

I think RM nailed it. As long as the intrusion on rights is against people that look like "others" or not one of us, its a minor intrusion that they shouldn't mind if they don't have anything to hide. That logic could be used to justify any incursion into your life. I say this as one of the least likely people to ever be profiled. In fact, I suspect that if I get spotted somewhere I don't belong the most likely police response would be to offer me help to get to where I'm trying to go. Arizona has a problem. This law is not the solution. The solution is twofold. First, stop the flow by border security and by going after employers. A tamper proof national work eligibility card would make it easier to go after employers by elimination their plausible deniability. Second, normalize the status of illegals with strong ties to the US and no criminal activity other than their status crimes. By strong ties I mean long residence, long work history or citizen close family.

[/b]

 

That was my point. :thumb: I'm guessing that folks who really won't like it still don't have a vote.

 

SO you're saying that all legal US citizens are for it?

We're also going to start hearing about the Supremacy Clause. I'm sure our esteemed BGP attorney can tell us about it but my understanding is that some question whether the state has a right to enforce a law that falls under Federal jurisdiction. This clause was cited as one of the reasons for the initial Prop 187 in CA being disallowed. This argument will probably be the first argument as it doesn't require a test case like the argument some will make that a person was arrested simply because of his race.

Edited April 26, 201016 yr by Clyde

:thumb:

 

I have to laugh at a few of the posters in this thread acting as if it's Nazi Germany stopping people and saying, "your papers please"! :lol:

 

What else is it? Maybe a solution for legals who look like they could be illegals is to get them a yellow star to wear. Sorry, but if I'm walking down the street minding my own business they had better have a darn good reason to ask for my ID and it had better be a better reason than I was whistling "Oh Canada".

SO you're saying that all legal US citizens are for it?

 

Don't know how you came up with that. I will say that all of the illegals are opposed.

Don't know how you came up with that. I will say that all of the illegals are opposed.

 

You said those that don't like it won't have a vote. How else could I take that? Did you mean they would not have "enough" votes?

You said those that don't like it won't have a vote. How else could I take that? Did you mean they would not have "enough" votes?

 

I said the ones who REALLY won't like it. I have no idea how the majority will react in AZ.

What else is it? Maybe a solution for legals who look like they could be illegals is to get them a yellow star to wear. Sorry, but if I'm walking down the street minding my own business they had better have a darn good reason to ask for my ID and it had better be a better reason than I was whistling "Oh Canada".

You're doing the exact same thing some of the others that are railing against this is, spreading hyperbolic nonsense.

 

 

 

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373©. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.

2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.

3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.

4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

 

 

Yeah, you're right, just like Nazi Germany.

I don't simply mind the time lost with these activities. Again, it's not so much me, as I don't look "Hispanic enough" to likely draw suspicion of being illegal myself. I'm put out at the treatment of people like my father, a Vietnam veteran, essentially having to prove that he is an American citizen, after giving eight years of his life serving his country. I know that it makes ME feel like I am looked at as less American and I know that it hurts my father, too. THAT is my issue.

 

Now, before someone suggest that I direct my ire at the illegal immigrants, I'd be much more likely to project it at those that hire them. Most of the illegal immigrants are not here to mooch off of our government, but to work. Take away their sources of income and they will stop coming.

 

I sympathize with your plight, and I agree that your father deserves more respect than he's gotten. However, I think your "take away their sources" argument is a little over-simplified.

 

As a general contractor, and a former home builder, I have been embroiled in more to-do about legal/illegal workers than I care to recount. (If you'd really like the list, PM me.) In this day and age as a construction contractor, it's advisable to pretty much just accept that you're going to be investigated through some kind of channels for hiring or contracting illegal workers. The reason why: on a large scale, illegal workers deceive employers. It's not like they come up to us and say, "Hey, we're here illegally. Give us a job for $2.00 less per hour than your legal guys." It's not like we put the word out that we'll hire illegals, or even that we simply overlook our duty to make sure our workers are legal. In reality, we are given falsified documents...and that's what happens virtually 100% of the time when it comes to illegals. What's even more maddening is that even when I'm presented with a seemingly legal set of photo identification, social security card and I9 documents, I still get in legal troubles of those folks turn out to be presenting forged documents.

 

I'm sorry, but I might have to suggest directing at least some of that ire back onto illegals. I get flack from contractors all the time because I "hound and harass" them for legal documentation on workers. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard people say, "you wouldn't be putting me through all of this if I didn't have Hispanics on my crews". To that I say this: Even if I really tick some folks off and they think I'm "profiling" somebody...I'm gonna do it all the same, because you know what, it's my butt on the line. I'm not gonna pay the fines and I'm not gonna get landed in jail.

 

All that being said, my point is that often times the only way to find out if people are legal or not is to dig at them. Is that a pain for the folks who are in the United States legally and still get questioned? YES! Is it a pain for the folks who have to pry because there's no other way to get the answer? YES! But, I have to lean towards the "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch" saying. Hispanics get profiled because numbers are numbers...most illegal workers in the US are Hispanic. Sure, there are illegal Asian, Russian, and Eastern European workers out there, but Hispanics account for the absolute lion's share. It stinks for you, and even more-so for your dad, because you really are being affected by the underhandedness and dishonesty of others.

I sympathize with your plight, and I agree that your father deserves more respect than he's gotten. However, I think your "take away their sources" argument is a little over-simplified.

 

As a general contractor, and a former home builder, I have been embroiled in more to-do about legal/illegal workers than I care to recount. (If you'd really like the list, PM me.) In this day and age as a construction contractor, it's advisable to pretty much just accept that you're going to be investigated through some kind of channels for hiring or contracting illegal workers. The reason why: on a large scale, illegal workers deceive employers. It's not like they come up to us and say, "Hey, we're here illegally. Give us a job for $2.00 less per hour than your legal guys." It's not like we put the word out that we'll hire illegals, or even that we simply overlook our duty to make sure our workers are legal. In reality, we are given falsified documents...and that's what happens virtually 100% of the time when it comes to illegals. What's even more maddening is that even when I'm presented with a seemingly legal set of photo identification, social security card and I9 documents, I still get in legal troubles of those folks turn out to be presenting forged documents.

 

I'm sorry, but I might have to suggest directing at least some of that ire back onto illegals. I get flack from contractors all the time because I "hound and harass" them for legal documentation on workers. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard people say, "you wouldn't be putting me through all of this if I didn't have Hispanics on my crews". To that I say this: Even if I really tick some folks off and they think I'm "profiling" somebody...I'm gonna do it all the same, because you know what, it's my butt on the line. I'm not gonna pay the fines and I'm not gonna get landed in jail.

 

All that being said, my point is that often times the only way to find out if people are legal or not is to dig at them. Is that a pain for the folks who are in the United States legally and still get questioned? YES! Is it a pain for the folks who have to pry because there's no other way to get the answer? YES! But, I have to lean towards the "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch" saying. Hispanics get profiled because numbers are numbers...most illegal workers in the US are Hispanic. Sure, there are illegal Asian, Russian, and Eastern European workers out there, but Hispanics account for the absolute lion's share. It stinks for you, and even more-so for your dad, because you really are being affected by the underhandedness and dishonesty of others.

 

You bring up some good points and I appreciate the manner in which you presented them.

 

One point that stuck out to me...if most illegals actually have illegal legal documents (if that makes sense), how will the proposed AZ law have much affect? Illegals with be "questioned" and will produce falsified documents.

How do you satisfactorily prove that you are a US citizen?