I think it's only a matter of time that Christian Academy of Louisville will challenge Trinity and X. It's a relatively new school and has an affluent family base, just like X and Trinity. I don't know what there interest is, but if they choose to invest in Football the only variable will be time.

 

Frankly I'd welcome a little more challenge and another private school to take some of the heat off of us.

 

Even so, I'd still give the Catholics the advantage. Football is a religious experience for us. Didn't you know? :banana:

Chrisitan Academy has decent field hockey, but not football. They have great facilites, with a seperate field for football, field hockey AND soccer. Three fields!! Plus the school is immense, so they have room to grow.

 

That part of town is booming, and is very affluent, so maybe in time they become a power. ALthough KCD never did, and they have been out that way for awhile.

1. When you speak of private schools being the only ones that have students from counties outside of their own, this is not accurate. Non-private schools have found creative ways around this "limitation". Thinking otherwise is simply naive.

 

2. Private schools do not have a guaranteed source of tax revenue. Many smaller private schools would LOVE to have the tax revenue that accompanies each student that attends (can you say "voucher"?)

 

3. This did not become an issue until private schools started winning. Lexington publics were glad to humiliate Lex Cath. When that was no longer possible, suddenly and mysteriously things were "unfair".

 

4. At what age is it appropriate to teach kids that the system will not artificially make them winners? The system provides the opportunity and hard work and initiative by the student sometimes achieves the results. Sometimes, through no fault of the student, it will not. Bad things happen and life doesn't always work the way we would like it to. Don't shelter kids from this lesson by creating an artificial "level playing field". The LPF does not exist in this world. The sooner the kids learn this, the less disappointing their lives, in the real world, will be.

 

5. All of this discussion is predicated upon the fact that all private schools are Trinity and St. X. They are not. Many struggle, so why in the name of winning, do you want to destroy them?

1. When you speak of private schools being the only ones that have students from counties outside of their own, this is not accurate. Non-private schools have found creative ways around this "limitation". Thinking otherwise is simply naive.

 

2. Private schools do not have a guaranteed source of tax revenue. Many smaller private schools would LOVE to have the tax revenue that accompanies each student that attends (can you say "voucher"?)

 

3. This did not become an issue until private schools started winning. Lexington publics were glad to humiliate Lex Cath. When that was no longer possible, suddenly and mysteriously things were "unfair".

 

4. At what age is it appropriate to teach kids that the system will not artificially make them winners? The system provides the opportunity and hard work and initiative by the student sometimes achieves the results. Sometimes, through no fault of the student, it will not. Bad things happen and life doesn't always work the way we would like it to. Don't shelter kids from this lesson by creating an artificial "level playing field". The LPF does not exist in this world. The sooner the kids learn this, the less disappointing their lives, in the real world, will be.

 

5. All of this discussion is predicated upon the fact that all private schools are Trinity and St. X. They are not. Many struggle, so why in the name of winning, do you want to destroy them?

 

Several of your points have addressed many times on here.

 

1. Just because public schools can have open enrollment guarantees they can entice students from outside the district. While, yes, it helps urban schools level the playing field, it does nothing for rural public schools.

 

2. Those students that come in your question #1, come with NO guaranteed funding source. And then the school district can realistically offer them financial aid.

 

3. It was an issue long before then, it was just that no one was listening to the publics when they brought it up.

 

4. The LPF is CONSTANTLY being tried to create AND is created in life. One example, NASCAR is limiting the number of cars that one owner can have starting next season to try and prevent the larger car owners from dominating the sport as they are presently. It has been shown with examples over and over and over that the LPF is addressed in society. Another example, Centre College gets their own NCAA championship to chase while not having to play UK or UL.

 

5. Many schools in this state have issues with the level playing field and it is nothing about T and X. T and X supporters just like to think it is all about them. Seriously, for the XX number of schools in 6A football it might be T and X. But Prop 20 received over 190 votes. I am pretty sure that there is NOT 190 schools in 6A or at that time 4A football.

 

Not trying to destroy anyone. Simply create a system, LIKE THE CLASS SYSTEMS IN FOOTBALL that puts schools competing against like schools.

Several of your points have addressed many times on here.

 

 

5. Many schools in this state have issues with the level playing field and it is nothing about T and X. T and X supporters just like to think it is all about them. Seriously, for the XX number of schools in 6A football it might be T and X. But Prop 20 received over 190 votes. I am pretty sure that there is NOT 190 schools in 6A or at that time 4A football.

 

Not trying to destroy anyone. Simply create a system, LIKE THE CLASS SYSTEMS IN FOOTBALL that puts schools competing against like schools.

 

How many of that 190 would vote for any kind of classification in basketball (other than private/public)?

 

How many in softball, baseball, volleyball, soccer?

 

If 190 are saying we don't like things the way they are because the playing field is not level, would they accept 4 classes in soccer, 8 in basketball, 6 in baseball as was done in football?

 

If yes, then the schools have the power to get it done. If no, then it isn't about schools competing against like-schools.

I may end up agreeing with you, but probably for different reasons. Mine would be out of shear exhaustion./QUOTE]

 

Most of these 190 Prop 20 votes feel just like JustLetMPlay. Everyone is exhausted with this topic and realize Prop 20 is the ONLY way to end it even if they don't agree with separation. It goes back to the inherent differences that I was speaking of in the first post in this thread. Mainly, privates HAVE to recruit to exist and/or thrive and have very few limits in this recruiting. This is perfectly acceptable except for athletic reasons. Problem is the recruiting carries over to athletics (I hate to type this because all the old, tired arguments that this is not the case will be resurrected).

So, do we separate or do we live with the fact that the large, affluent privates have a distinct advantage, especially in football (the ultimate TEAM sport) that can in no way be compared to basketball where one or two very good players can control and dominate a game?

Several of your points have addressed many times on here.

 

1. Just because public schools can have open enrollment guarantees they can entice students from outside the district. While, yes, it helps urban schools level the playing field, it does nothing for rural public schools.

 

2. Those students that come in your question #1, come with NO guaranteed funding source. And then the school district can realistically offer them financial aid.

 

3. It was an issue long before then, it was just that no one was listening to the publics when they brought it up.

 

4. The LPF is CONSTANTLY being tried to create AND is created in life. One example, NASCAR is limiting the number of cars that one owner can have starting next season to try and prevent the larger car owners from dominating the sport as they are presently. It has been shown with examples over and over and over that the LPF is addressed in society. Another example, Centre College gets their own NCAA championship to chase while not having to play UK or UL.

 

5. Many schools in this state have issues with the level playing field and it is nothing about T and X. T and X supporters just like to think it is all about them. Seriously, for the XX number of schools in 6A football it might be T and X. But Prop 20 received over 190 votes. I am pretty sure that there is NOT 190 schools in 6A or at that time 4A football.

 

Not trying to destroy anyone. Simply create a system, LIKE THE CLASS SYSTEMS IN FOOTBALL that puts schools competing against like schools.

 

It seems then that the better solution, based upon the above sentence is a class system in all sports instead of a public/private split. That argument to me does hold water as opposed to just throw the private schools out. The public/private split argument reeks of "I am taking my marbles and going home". The most disenfranchised group in this scenario would be the small private schools.

 

Also, my first point not only happens in urban schools but also in the higher profile non-urban public schools as well (without "funding"). So I guess this would mean by your second point that they are receiving "financial aid", i.e. not paying tuition = "free". But what is the true incremental cost of the extra student to the public schools? I have heard a lot of cost figures thrown around, but I am talking about the actual incremental variable cost associated with that one extra person, i.e. not including the fixed costs which comprise the vast majority of the structure.

 

Your point 4 above is very valid. The only problem is that I don't believe Centre is playing in Division III because they are a private school. They are playing in Division III because they are small. Can you imagine the resultant lawsuits if tomorrow the NCAA said they were going to split divisions, not based upon the size of the institution, but based upon if the school was public or private???

 

The best solution to the UPF is for AD's to schedule games with teams that are similar in terms of competitiveness. Period. Tournament play could be taken care of with a class system similar to football. However, we know that the KHSAA would never go for this due to the financial success of the Sweet 16. I must admit that I would have mixed feelings on the loss of David vs Goliath struggles that sometimes can result in basketball. But we can't have it both ways, can we?

 

Thanks for your response LBBC. I always enjoy your well-crafted and thought-provoking postings.

Several of your points have addressed many times on here.

 

Okay, I know you start every post with this remark, but I (and probably other newbies) have spent contless hours reading this forum. We can't remember every single thought presented here in the past 2 years. Plus, we would like to comment on something that was brought up a year ago...maybe.

 

 

1. Just because public schools can have open enrollment guarantees they can entice students from outside the district. While, yes, it helps urban schools level the playing field, it does nothing for rural public schools.

 

Rural schools will always be an anomaly that CANNOT be fixed when compared to huge cities. Bigger counties can help themselves though, and stop building so many schools. In Louisville, in my life of 42 years, there has NOT been one single NEW catholic school started, other than those created when consolidating and closing other schools. Consolidation is a huge factor at the parochial level also. Publics really should look at consolidation which is done in other states.

 

3. It was an issue long before then, it was just that no one was listening to the publics when they brought it up.

 

I disagree here, this is a recent phenomenon, unless talk was amongst coaches only and not the general public. I've been around this my whole life, had a cousin coach the Flaget Braves to a state title, and there wasn't a lot of talk back then for sure. There was not the sense of entitlemnt in the country like there is now.

 

 

5. Many schools in this state have issues with the level playing field and it is nothing about T and X. T and X supporters just like to think it is all about them. Seriously, for the XX number of schools in 6A football it might be T and X. But Prop 20 received over 190 votes.

 

Saddam Hussein received 100% of the vote in his last election, but apparently that isn't really how the people felt now, is it? Many (not the majority) votes were "pressured". I know a Louisville public HS coach who refuses to play Manual in a particular sport because of recruiting. But that coach is silenced by their own AD because they don't want a public on public "squabble", to quote the AD.

 

Not trying to destroy anyone. Simply create a system, LIKE THE CLASS SYSTEMS IN FOOTBALL that puts schools competing against like schools.

 

 

See bolded comments above.

 

I honestly admit I know nothing about the situation outside of Louisville, even though I am from Bardstown. Maybe it shouldhave stayed the way it was years ago when counties and city had seperate championships. Sometimes, you must be careful what you wish for.

I'll tell you where I'm at with all this:

 

After what seems a lifetime of defending the private, and open enrollment public, and[/] urban sides, I am firmly convinced that the best solution for all involved is to support their schools. I try not to be petty about about non-support of schools I feel are trying to cast the schools I support in a bad light, but confess that I do resort to some petty reactions.

 

As to the "casues" most dear to my heart, I obviously believe in the value of private education, Catholic education specifically. I know that the aspersions cast are incorrect, and I choose to continue to support those schools in everyway possible, and to ignore the aspersions at this point.

 

I figure whatever will be, will be. I admit to an increased respect and approval of the KHSAA, the BOE, and our state legislature in their handling of the recent proposals. I also have a new found respect for the KHSAA in particular, as I feel the Association is trying to do the right thing, but that there is no way to satisfy everyone.

 

My continued scorn is for those administrators who would refuse to compromise to the point that it hurts the kids. They're in the wrong business, IMO.

Why do private schools even care if there is a split? X and Trinity play each other for the championship. Only a matter of time before it happens in other classes. Lex Christian already in a championship. I don't understand why private schools want to stay together with public schools when you have a vote like we had.

 

Maybe we let private hold on to this and publics go elsewhere. Use the mind set we are the ones leaving and not the ones kicking you out.

 

It's going to happen. Maybe later than sooner, but it will happen.

With 46 privates, how do you propose we divide it up?

 

Not all of which even play football to the best of my knowledge.

 

In Louisville:

 

Trinity

St.X

DeSales

Holy Cross

Christian Academy of Louisville

 

Of those none of the bottom 3 would even be fair to have play the Rocks or Tigers. I dare say Ballard, Male, Manual, Henry Clay and Boone County have more of a chance against them.

 

Outside of Louisville we have:

 

Owensboro Catholic

Newport Central Catholic

Covington Catholic

Lexington Catholic

Lexington Christian Academy

 

Of those only CovCath and LexCath would remotely have a shot at the titans of 6A.

 

Why do private schools even care if there is a split? X and Trinity play each other for the championship. Only a matter of time before it happens in other classes. Lex Christian already in a championship. I don't understand why private schools want to stay together with public schools when you have a vote like we had.

 

Maybe we let private hold on to this and publics go elsewhere. Use the mind set we are the ones leaving and not the ones kicking you out.

 

It's going to happen. Maybe later than sooner, but it will happen.

 

 

Note my above post. That is the reason we care. You'll never convince me that CAL has a better chance against Trinity on the football field than Ballard or Male. Even though they are a private school.

 

Closest game St.X has played this year was against Manual, another public school. The big public schools have a far better chance against us than the small privates do. Our concerns are for our smaller bretheren.

 

Of course they really haven't reached our level of dominance either, so I suspect you won't find as many people caring about them.

Answer.....Two divisions.

 

4 public

2 private

 

Private schools will never agree to operate under the same guidelines as public. There is only one solution to the problem, that is why it will take so long for it to come about. Those in power will exhaust all options before finally conceding to only one conclusion, a split.

Answer.....Two divisions.

 

4 public

2 private

 

 

So you have what, 4 schools in the large private division? :lol:

So you have what, 4 schools in the large private division? :lol:

 

Why just four? Are those the only ones that can compete with each other?

Why just four? Are those the only ones that can compete with each other?

 

 

They are the only ones of moderately similar size. So yes they are the only ones that can compete with each other year in year out. Even then it is iffy on 2 of them.

 

Trinity and St.X both have male enrollments of approximately 1400-1500 students a piece.

 

CovCath and LexCath I don't believe are moderately close to that. As it is CovCath is playing up this year to 5A. LexCath is 4A. Trinity and St.X would be 6A even if the KHSAA didn't double the enrollment of single sex schools for the sake of classification.