So it is fair to destroy some public schools because they are asked to compete in a system that stacks so much against them?

 

I still stand by my statement that rural schools who are able to compete, just compete not necessarily win, against the private schools and big urban schools ARE outworking everyone.

 

Last night, I took my son for a bball game in a league in NKY because there is NO OTHER OPTION for us. It was an evening trip for us. 40 minutes up. Arrive 30 minutes early. hour for the game. 40 minutes back. 2 hours and 50 minutes for the one game.

 

For those in NKY, it is a 10 minute trip, hour game and back home 10 minutes after the game.

 

There is more commitment from a rural parent who is trying to set up the situation for their kid to be competitive.

 

 

I never questioned their committment or anything along those lines. LBBC you should know me better than that by now. I agree that the issue is more rural-urban than private-public. The privates tend to be in urban settings where people can afford to send their children there, you don't find too many privates in the rural areas of the state. If you did I would venture to guess that they would probably have similar struggles to the rural publics. :thumb:

Doesn't work.

 

Where do you put in the improvements to facilities? Does that count if one school puts in millions on upgrading their football field?

 

Also, there are a lot of parents who cannot afford to send their child to all the camps and provide all the top notch equipment. Are you planning on limiting what parents can spend? Cause I can tell you Chris Collinsworth at Highlands is going to be spending a lot more on his kids, the camps they can attend and the equipment they have, than I can. He may have his kids involved in speed and offseason conditioning programs.

 

In addition, what about the parents who cannot afford to join the local country club and have their kid playing golf while another family in the district over is a member and can afford a top of the line pro to give lessons to their child at $100 an hour?

 

I didn't exactly state this was the silver bullet. I did think the premise has merit, or at least it get's us looking at things from a different perspective.

 

You bring up some good points. Even if the schools were on equal footing a lot of the burden shifts to the parents and the have's gain benefits the have-nots (or lives to far aways) can't get.

 

My comments focused on the school budgets, but your comments point out what might be a fatal flaw. The parents will never be regulated when it comes to spending thier money.

 

JustletMplay also brought up that money didn't necessarily translate into championships. Although that is true that money doesn't buy championships it's sure easy to look at the recent winners and jump to the assumption their budgets outstrip many of their competitors.

 

One additional thought: For those kids who love the sport and love to compete will find a way to make it happen. Jody Mudd was a pro on the PGA circuit about 15-20 years ago and he grew up playing the public courses in Louisville. Although not a Tiger Woods - he did alright for a KY boy.

On the bolded, it is my sincere hope that you do.

 

 

It isn't like we have some secret bunker where we sit there and talk about giving athletes scholarships.

 

 

Maybe you aren't in on the "secret bunker" meetings but they do happen. I will give you an example from the past year that I am very familiar with because I know the athlete very well (coached him). Low income family, African-American male, with single mother and four siblings. Never attended private school or catholic church and is a marginal student. But (big but) he happens to run a legitimate 4.6 forty as an eighth grader (young 8th grader - 13 yrs old) and scoring 4 TD's per game in youth league. Big Louisville private coach starts popping up at his games and wooing him. Next thing we know he has an entire wardrobe of Big Private School clothing, constant stream of mailers to his house, and regular calls from Big Private Coach to his cell phone. Mom is convinced her son will get more positive male influence at Big Private School. She calls the coach at the public school her son was planning to attend and tells him her son was going to Big Private School. However, when financial assistance letter comes back to her, she was still going to have to come up with over $2000 to attend. This was not possible, so she completes enrollment for the public school and athlete starts lifting weights with the public school team. The next week, athlete doesn't show up at weight lifting. Public coach calls mother. A "sponsor" has offered to pay the $2000 plus for mom. He enrolls at Big Private School. I promise you this is a factual story. I was there for the entire ride.

I realize you are not supporting this type of behavior. This is cheating - plain and simple. But, this happens regularly. You don't seem to belief this.

The above athlete didn't see much playing time at Big Private because there are two other older RB's there that also attended public schools through 8th grade only to be recruited by Big Private for 9th.

Maybe you aren't in on the "secret bunker" meetings but they do happen. I will give you an example from the past year that I am very familiar with because I know the athlete very well (coached him). Low income family, African-American male, with single mother and four siblings. Never attended private school or catholic church and is a marginal student. But (big but) he happens to run a legitimate 4.6 forty as an eighth grader (young 8th grader - 13 yrs old) and scoring 4 TD's per game in youth league. Big Louisville private coach starts popping up at his games and wooing him. Next thing we know he has an entire wardrobe of Big Private School clothing, constant stream of mailers to his house, and regular calls from Big Private Coach to his cell phone. Mom is convinced her son will get more positive male influence at Big Private School. She calls the coach at the public school her son was planning to attend and tells him her son was going to Big Private School. However, when financial assistance letter comes back to her, she was still going to have to come up with over $2000 to attend. This was not possible, so she completes enrollment for the public school and athlete starts lifting weights with the public school team. The next week, athlete doesn't show up at weight lifting. Public coach calls mother. A "sponsor" has offered to pay the $2000 plus for mom. He enrolls at Big Private School. I promise you this is a factual story. I was there for the entire ride.

I realize you are not supporting this type of behavior. This is cheating - plain and simple. But, this happens regularly. You don't seem to belief this.

The above athlete didn't see much playing time at Big Private because there are two other older RB's there that also attended public schools through 8th grade only to be recruited by Big Private for 9th.

 

So why wasn't this reported to the KHSAA?

 

That said, I will say that if I were a rich man and I knew of families who would not be able to make it into Trinity I would be happy to cover their the remainder of their tuition, no matter what sport they played if they even played one. As it was my father's senior year at Flaget wasn't paid for by his parents, his aunt paid for it.

 

I personaly would like to see everyone who wanted to attend Trinity be able to do so, no matter their background.

So why wasn't this reported to the KHSAA?

 

That said, I will say that if I were a rich man and I knew of families who would not be able to make it into Trinity I would be happy to cover their the remainder of their tuition, no matter what sport they played if they even played one. As it was my father's senior year at Flaget wasn't paid for by his parents, his aunt paid for it.

 

I personaly would like to see everyone who wanted to attend Trinity be able to do so, no matter their background.

 

Pep, you are a great alum, representative, and fan. I respect your believes - stick with them. Trinity is lucky to have you on their side. Good luck in the playoffs.

 

I'm signing off this thread. I'm spending way too much time and energy thinking about this topic and I'm not sure there is a feasible solution.

 

As for not reporting to KHSAA, I can only tell you why I didn't. The KHSAA tends to focus the punishment on the athlete. I don't want to jeopardize any athlete losing part of the best four years of their lives.

 

I've enjoyed the dialogue, but I'm ready to talk about something fun. I'm switching to the football forum.

Pep, you are a great alum, representative, and fan. I respect your believes - stick with them. Trinity is lucky to have you on their side. Good luck in the playoffs.

 

I'm signing off this thread. I'm spending way too much time and energy thinking about this topic and I'm not sure there is a feasible solution.

 

As for not reporting to KHSAA, I can only tell you why I didn't. The KHSAA tends to focus the punishment on the athlete. I don't want to jeopardize any athlete losing part of the best four years of their lives.

 

I've enjoyed the dialogue, but I'm ready to talk about something fun. I'm switching to the football forum.

 

Hopefully you've not signed off quite yet. As for the bolded part, you are an enabler of the people doing wrong. The number of times I've been told by some coach some school administrator that they "know" of this stuff going on but they didn't report it because the coach in question was a friend, a member of the coaching fraternity, or because they didn't want to hurt the athlete involved makes me sick. This is the very reason the system does not work. We have all the necessary rules in place to stop this type of behavior but people just refuse to report the wrongdoings for whatever their reason. Please do not tell me its a waste of time because the KHSAA won't do anything about it against the school (I agree they won't take action against the coach because they believe that since the coach is not an employee of the KHSAA, rather the school, they have no legal grounds to punish the coach. I personally think that line of thinking is bunk and that the KHSAA should and can ban any coach from coaching in Ky whom is found guilty of recruiting). But the thinking that the KHSAA will only take action against the kid and not the school is pure baloney and if you talked to any current Board of Control member, they'd tell you that. Furthermore, how can you ever be sure that the KHSAA won't do anything about a particular situation, if you don't turn it in? People who know of wrongdoing but fail to report it are as much of the problem, in my opinion, as the coach doing the recruiting. We have rules and people aware of wrongdoing need to have the courage to report the wrongdoing. The rules WILL be enforced particularly in the climate we are dealing with today.

Hopefully you've not signed off quite yet. As for the bolded part, you are an enabler of the people doing wrong. The number of times I've been told by some coach some school administrator that they "know" of this stuff going on but they didn't report it because the coach in question was a friend, a member of the coaching fraternity, or because they didn't want to hurt the athlete involved makes me sick. This is the very reason the system does not work. We have all the necessary rules in place to stop this type of behavior but people just refuse to report the wrongdoings for whatever their reason. Please do not tell me its a waste of time because the KHSAA won't do anything about it against the school (I agree they won't take action against the coach because they believe that since the coach is not an employee of the KHSAA, rather the school, they have no legal grounds to punish the coach. I personally think that line of thinking is bunk and that the KHSAA should and can ban any coach from coaching in Ky whom is found guilty of recruiting). But the thinking that the KHSAA will only take action against the kid and not the school is pure baloney and if you talked to any current Board of Control member, they'd tell you that. Furthermore, how can you ever be sure that the KHSAA won't do anything about a particular situation, if you don't turn it in? People who know of wrongdoing but fail to report it are as much of the problem, in my opinion, as the coach doing the recruiting. We have rules and people aware of wrongdoing need to have the courage to report the wrongdoing. The rules WILL be enforced particularly in the climate we are dealing with today.

 

I agree with you and I'll take it one step farther. If there is no penalty for breaking the rules, we reward rule breakers by giving them an advantage. I do not believe that my school is involved in illegal recruiting, but if it ever happens I want it stopped. If that means going through the pain of KHSAA sanctions, so be it.

Maybe you aren't in on the "secret bunker" meetings but they do happen. I will give you an example from the past year that I am very familiar with because I know the athlete very well (coached him). Low income family, African-American male, with single mother and four siblings. Never attended private school or catholic church and is a marginal student. But (big but) he happens to run a legitimate 4.6 forty as an eighth grader (young 8th grader - 13 yrs old) and scoring 4 TD's per game in youth league. Big Louisville private coach starts popping up at his games and wooing him. Next thing we know he has an entire wardrobe of Big Private School clothing, constant stream of mailers to his house, and regular calls from Big Private Coach to his cell phone. Mom is convinced her son will get more positive male influence at Big Private School. She calls the coach at the public school her son was planning to attend and tells him her son was going to Big Private School. However, when financial assistance letter comes back to her, she was still going to have to come up with over $2000 to attend. This was not possible, so she completes enrollment for the public school and athlete starts lifting weights with the public school team. The next week, athlete doesn't show up at weight lifting. Public coach calls mother. A "sponsor" has offered to pay the $2000 plus for mom. He enrolls at Big Private School. I promise you this is a factual story. I was there for the entire ride.

I realize you are not supporting this type of behavior. This is cheating - plain and simple. But, this happens regularly. You don't seem to belief this.

The above athlete didn't see much playing time at Big Private because there are two other older RB's there that also attended public schools through 8th grade only to be recruited by Big Private for 9th.

I am a private school advocate, but assuming all your facts are accurate (and I have no reason to doubt them) this school should absolutely be reported to the KHSAA. This is CHEATING, and certainly isn't tolorated at all at schools in my area. This is just what we have been saying all along. With strong enforcement this type of thing CAN be stopped. With all te details you have laid out, I would think the public school involved would have a very good case to present to the KHSAA. Has anyone reported them? If not, then shame on them. You can't get action unless you take action. There seems to be many verifiable facts here, but you can't expect anything to happen if it is only discussed here.

I am a private school advocate, but assuming all your facts are accurate (and I have no reason to doubt them) this school should absolutely be reported to the KHSAA. This is CHEATING, and certainly isn't tolorated at all at schools in my area. This is just what we have been saying all along. With strong enforcement this type of thing CAN be stopped. With all te details you have laid out, I would think the public school involved would have a very good case to present to the KHSAA. Has anyone reported them? If not, then shame on them. You can't get action unless you take action. There seems to be many verifiable facts here, but you can't expect anything to happen if it is only discussed here.

 

I agree whole heartedly. If this is what the separationist are upset about, then I agree with their frustration 100%. My question is, if we make a conserted effort to report and we successfully punish this type of stuff, and everything else that is already illegal, do we still have a problem? Would that satisfy the demand for separation, or is this just one issue? I'm assuming this would not be enough, which would bring me back to my question of what does 'fair' and 'level' actually look like?

Maybe you aren't in on the "secret bunker" meetings but they do happen. I will give you an example from the past year that I am very familiar with because I know the athlete very well (coached him). Low income family, African-American male, with single mother and four siblings. Never attended private school or catholic church and is a marginal student. But (big but) he happens to run a legitimate 4.6 forty as an eighth grader (young 8th grader - 13 yrs old) and scoring 4 TD's per game in youth league. Big Louisville private coach starts popping up at his games and wooing him. Next thing we know he has an entire wardrobe of Big Private School clothing, constant stream of mailers to his house, and regular calls from Big Private Coach to his cell phone. Mom is convinced her son will get more positive male influence at Big Private School. She calls the coach at the public school her son was planning to attend and tells him her son was going to Big Private School. However, when financial assistance letter comes back to her, she was still going to have to come up with over $2000 to attend. This was not possible, so she completes enrollment for the public school and athlete starts lifting weights with the public school team. The next week, athlete doesn't show up at weight lifting. Public coach calls mother. A "sponsor" has offered to pay the $2000 plus for mom. He enrolls at Big Private School. I promise you this is a factual story. I was there for the entire ride.

I realize you are not supporting this type of behavior. This is cheating - plain and simple. But, this happens regularly. You don't seem to belief this.

The above athlete didn't see much playing time at Big Private because there are two other older RB's there that also attended public schools through 8th grade only to be recruited by Big Private for 9th.

 

Several of you have posted that the school needs to be punished for doing this.

 

My question is how are your going to PROVE it happen unless one of the following happens:

1) the mother admits to it with the KHSAA and thus runs the risk of having their child removed from the private school that she wants them to attend;

2) the student admits to it and runs the risk of having him remove from the school he wants to attend;

3) the booster admits to it.

 

You have a public school coach's comments on a conversation and that is it.

 

I am NOT denying that it happened.

 

Just wondering without help from family or the booster, how do you prove it?

Several of you have posted that the school needs to be punished for doing this.

 

My question is how are your going to PROVE it happen unless one of the following happens:

1) the mother admits to it with the KHSAA and thus runs the risk of having their child removed from the private school that she wants them to attend;

2) the student admits to it and runs the risk of having him remove from the school he wants to attend;

3) the booster admits to it.

 

You have a public school coach's comments on a conversation and that is it.

 

I am NOT denying that it happened.

 

Just wondering without help from family or the booster, how do you prove it?

I would think that if enough public school coaches report this type of thing in this much detail the KHSAA will investigate.

I would think that if enough public school coaches report this type of thing in this much detail the KHSAA will investigate.

 

Okay, the KHSAA investigates. Without one of the 3 things I listed occurring, how will they prove anything?

Okay, the KHSAA investigates. Without one of the 3 things I listed occurring, how will they prove anything?

 

Can't they audit the money? Somewhere, somehow, you could find that out. If it's a check then it's very easy, but even if it's cash it seems there would be some way to find that the balance of the tuition, (which the family did not originally have) appeared ? Start with the school, if the payment was made by the mother; then go to the mother. It's legal to 'gift' someone less than $10k without reporting to irs, but as far KHSAA is concerned, it is not legal to pay that tuition. She should be required to account for the sudden income...

 

If KHSAA has no ability to pursue a money trail, then they need to acquire it. We're back to enforcement of sound rules, not make up new ones...aren't we.

 

I would think the board and the legislature would be wide open to more stringent enforcement procedures/power if that was brought before them? Doesn't seem that difficult really. You could actually make it a "legal" issue by requiring a notorized document upon registration to a school, that simply asks the family and the institution to legally swear that all the money paid to the institution is their's or is documented legal financial or whatever. That it is not a gift from anyone. ( I suppose you would have to work through some procedure for family helping out...that is not uncommon for grandparents / uncles etc to help; but I still say you could establish a way to document that and at least make it much, much, more difficult to cheat and get away with it.)

 

Just like you do when you close on a house. If they lie, then they are exposed to legal action as well as KHSAA action. I need an AAL to pitch in...

Several of you have posted that the school needs to be punished for doing this.

 

My question is how are your going to PROVE it happen unless one of the following happens:

1) the mother admits to it with the KHSAA and thus runs the risk of having their child removed from the private school that she wants them to attend;

2) the student admits to it and runs the risk of having him remove from the school he wants to attend;

3) the booster admits to it.

 

You have a public school coach's comments on a conversation and that is it.

 

I am NOT denying that it happened.

 

Just wondering without help from family or the booster, how do you prove it?

 

The same way that prosecutors prove any crime. First you talk to the witnesses. You subpeona them and place them under oath (no 5th Amendment right not to incriminate yourself here I wouldn't think since there are being charged with a crime, then again I'm not a criminal or constitutional atty). Sure they could lie under oath, but that's getting pretty serious to me. Plus if Momma or the kid became upset with the lack of playing time at the private school, perhaps they would be more willing to dime on the private school coach than you think. Furthermore, couldn't the KHSAA give the kid some type of immunity or work out some type of deal that if he/his parents provide legitimate proof of the recruiting, the kid could be eligible to play immediately at his "home" public school? I'd be all in favor of that as it would further the State Board of Education's strong mandate to punish the adults, not the kids.

 

Not all the witnesses are just the parents, kid and coach. Evidently Sprocket has personally (and I presume many others have also) observed the kid wearing lots of private school garb. Lots of people had to observe the private school coach attend lots of the middle school games and "woo him" (although I don't know what "wooing him" means). These people would be witnesses and would have no reason to hold back in testifying. I'd think the phone records could be subpeonaed by the KHSAA. Perhaps the money could be traced as mentioned above. Based on what I've read, it would appear some pretty convincing circumstantial evidence could be gathered if people just stepped forward. Maybe the first time this happened with a school, the circumstantial evidence may not be enough. But if enough reports of this type of behavior occurred, I could see the KHSAA saying enough is enough and the involved coaches banned for life and the associated school placed on suspension and eventually thrown out of the KHSAA.

 

Plus, anyone whom thinks that every attempt to recruit is successful is putting something other than sugar in their coffee. I'd have to believe that if the KHSAA announced that they were investigating a coach for recruiting, all the kids and their parents that were unsuccessfully recruited would come out of the wood work to tell what happened to them. We have to face reality: programs like X, T, Lex Cath, CovCath, Beechwood and Highlands are not real popular (even in their home areas). Does anyone think for a minute that if Highlands coach, for example, was doing this type of behavior that the kids who refused to take the "bait" and their parents would hesitate at all in contacting the KHSAA to report him? Man I sure don't (which is one of the reasons I'm very confident that Highlands coach doesn't engage in this type of activity). I'm sure there are lots of people that would love to see Highlands fry if they could make it happen.

 

Bottom line: again, if you know or have solid reason to think that this type of behavior is occuring, be it by a public or private school, and you don't report it, YOU are just as responsible for it happening as the coach doing it. I don't want to hear that its a waste of time because the KHSAA isn't serious about this stuff. Its not true and even if it was true, report it and let it be the KHSAA that failed its responsibilities, not you. Sorry Sprocket and others that agree with him, but there was zero reason not to report this type of behavior if you were as sure as your post indicates that it happened. Zero.

The same way that prosecutors prove any crime. First you talk to the witnesses. You subpeona them and place them under oath (no 5th Amendment right not to incriminate yourself here I wouldn't think since there are being charged with a crime, then again I'm not a criminal or constitutional atty). Sure they could lie under oath, but that's getting pretty serious to me. Plus if Momma or the kid became upset with the lack of playing time at the private school, perhaps they would be more willing to dime on the private school coach than you think. Furthermore, couldn't the KHSAA give the kid some type of immunity or work out some type of deal that if he/his parents provide legitimate proof of the recruiting, the kid could be eligible to play immediately at his "home" public school? I'd be all in favor of that as it would further the State Board of Education's strong mandate to punish the adults, not the kids.

 

Not all the witnesses are just the parents, kid and coach. Evidently Sprocket has personally (and I presume many others have also) observed the kid wearing lots of private school garb. Lots of people had to observe the private school coach attend lots of the middle school games and "woo him" (although I don't know what "wooing him" means). These people would be witnesses and would have no reason to hold back in testifying. I'd think the phone records could be subpeonaed by the KHSAA. Perhaps the money could be traced as mentioned above. Based on what I've read, it would appear some pretty convincing circumstantial evidence could be gathered if people just stepped forward. Maybe the first time this happened with a school, the circumstantial evidence may not be enough. But if enough reports of this type of behavior occurred, I could see the KHSAA saying enough is enough and the involved coaches banned for life and the associated school placed on suspension and eventually thrown out of the KHSAA.

 

Plus, anyone whom thinks that every attempt to recruit is successful is putting something other than sugar in their coffee. I'd have to believe that if the KHSAA announced that they were investigating a coach for recruiting, all the kids and their parents that were unsuccessfully recruited would come out of the wood work to tell what happened to them. We have to face reality: programs like X, T, Lex Cath, CovCath, Beechwood and Highlands are not real popular (even in their home areas). Does anyone think for a minute that if Highlands coach, for example, was doing this type of behavior that the kids who refused to take the "bait" and their parents would hesitate at all in contacting the KHSAA to report him? Man I sure don't (which is one of the reasons I'm very confident that Highlands coach doesn't engage in this type of activity). I'm sure there are lots of people that would love to see Highlands fry if they could make it happen.

 

Bottom line: again, if you know or have solid reason to think that this type of behavior is occuring, be it by a public or private school, and you don't report it, YOU are just as responsible for it happening as the coach doing it. I don't want to hear that its a waste of time because the KHSAA isn't serious about this stuff. Its not true and even if it was true, report it and let it be the KHSAA that failed its responsibilities, not you. Sorry Sprocket and others that agree with him, but there was zero reason not to report this type of behavior if you were as sure as your post indicates that it happened. Zero.

 

Reading what you suggest I would have to go through if I was in that position, I wouldn't come forward and have to live through all that mess for what would seem a lengthy time.

 

Come forward and have people ripping me a part on Internet forums like BGP, doesn't sound like a situation I would come forward and put myself and my family (teenager children having to read about what a horrible person I am from that school's supporters)

 

Come forward and hear people on the radio and television and talk about what my ulterior motives supposedly are and what a horrible person I am.

 

All for something that really doesn't matter.

 

Yeah, sounds like we would have a rush of people coming forward to be ripped apart.

 

Just like we have a lack of good candidates for President because of how they are going to be ripped apart in the media, I think you see people not coming forward because simply it isn't worth it.