A question for Catholics. What biblical basis are there for the assertions the church makes about Mary in the Catechism? Such as, calling her All-Holy, free from the stain of original sin, free from sin her whole life, Mediatrix, Advocate, Helper (names typically reserved for members of the Trinity), Queen of all things, etc...

 

I just don't think I could ever reconcile these teachings with the Bible, thus I could never believe them. It seems to me they stop just short (ever so short) of placing her on the same level as God. It's pretty clear, however, that they do place her above everyone or everything else besides God.

 

The doctrine of Mary is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, disagreements I have, so I'd just like to get some perspective and thoughts from that side of the fence. It might bring me to a little better understanding of it all.

 

Thanks in advance.

Actually....let's discuss snake handling. Now, I know some about this, but could REALLY use some more insight into that one!

 

As to the Kool Aid...well....I guess we could discuss that one, but then we bring up the whole question:

 

What's the difference between a Religious Cult and a Religious Denomination....

 

The snake handling, obviously, comes from this passage in Mark...

 

Mark 16:15-18

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

 

From what I can gather, there is some dispute about verse 9-20. Many early manuscripts do not include these verses, rather ending the chapter at verse 8. Not that there aren't plenty of other good reasons, but for that reason alone it seems building doctrine on that verse would be iffy at best.

 

I watched a documentary on snake handlers. It was pretty neat. They aren't allowed to do it in public churches anymore, so they currently meet at each other's homes for the snake handling. They go out and catch the snakes (rattlesnakes) and keep them in a box. During the service they get them out and hold them up and let them crawl on their shoulders and stuff (like people do with pythons...oooh...getting cold chills just thinking about it, I hate snakes). They hold them and pass them around while the service, singing and preaching is going on. They'll kinda dance around and make these herky-jerky movements and stuff while holding the snakes. It's crazy...to me anyway.

 

In addition, something you may or may not be aware of, these same people will drink strychnine. They have it in mason jars (it looked like a jar of moonshine in the video I watched) and they just pass it around and drink it. It didn't seem to bother them...I wonder if the body doesn't build up some sort of immunity to it if you don't drink too much the first few times. I don't know.

 

Anyway, back to the snake handling...they showed one guy who got bit by a rattlesnake and refused to go to the doctor, saying that God would heal him if it was meant to be. Eventually, he got in such bad shape that he did end up in the hospital. His arm looked nasty. I can't remember now if he lost his arm or not, but he did live, and he was right back handling snakes when he got well enough.

 

That's about all I've got right now, and I know it isn't exactly on topic, but I thought a few might find it interesting, and a few might be able to add to it.

The snake handling, obviously, comes from this passage in Mark...

 

Mark 16:15-18

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

 

From what I can gather, there is some dispute about verse 9-20. Many early manuscripts do not include these verses, rather ending the chapter at verse 8. Not that there aren't plenty of other good reasons, but for that reason alone it seems building doctrine on that verse would be iffy at best.

 

I watched a documentary on snake handlers. It was pretty neat. They aren't allowed to do it in public churches anymore, so they currently meet at each other's homes for the snake handling. They go out and catch the snakes (rattlesnakes) and keep them in a box. During the service they get them out and hold them up and let them crawl on their shoulders and stuff (like people do with pythons...oooh...getting cold chills just thinking about it, I hate snakes). They hold them and pass them around while the service, singing and preaching is going on. They'll kinda dance around and make these herky-jerky movements and stuff while holding the snakes. It's crazy...to me anyway.

 

In addition, something you may or may not be aware of, these same people will drink strychnine. They have it in mason jars (it looked like a jar of moonshine in the video I watched) and they just pass it around and drink it. It didn't seem to bother them...I wonder if the body doesn't build up some sort of immunity to it if you don't drink too much the first few times. I don't know.

 

Anyway, back to the snake handling...they showed one guy who got bit by a rattlesnake and refused to go to the doctor, saying that God would heal him if it was meant to be. Eventually, he got in such bad shape that he did end up in the hospital. His arm looked nasty. I can't remember now if he lost his arm or not, but he did live, and he was right back handling snakes when he got well enough.

 

That's about all I've got right now, and I know it isn't exactly on topic, but I thought a few might find it interesting, and a few might be able to add to it.

 

 

Thanks, 5wide, I started to post on this subject this morning but was too lazy to type in all the verse references and research. However, since you've done half the work I will add:

 

1 Corinthians 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents.

 

The above verse is more than enough to keep my hand out of the snake box.

A question for Catholics. What biblical basis are there for the assertions the church makes about Mary in the Catechism? Such as, calling her All-Holy, free from the stain of original sin, free from sin her whole life, Mediatrix, Advocate, Helper (names typically reserved for members of the Trinity), Queen of all things, etc...

 

I just don't think I could ever reconcile these teachings with the Bible, thus I could never believe them. It seems to me they stop just short (ever so short) of placing her on the same level as God. It's pretty clear, however, that they do place her above everyone or everything else besides God.

 

The doctrine of Mary is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, disagreements I have, so I'd just like to get some perspective and thoughts from that side of the fence. It might bring me to a little better understanding of it all.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

So, I just spent my lunch hour at the library...productively, I might add.

 

So, as to the assertion that there's no scriptural basis for the Catholic belief in the Virgin Mary:

 

26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

 

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

 

She is revered, and I don't see how you could argue the reverence. She's the MOTHER of Jesus! We don't place her above God, but we do revere her.

So...what about the patron saint of driving and house selling?

Were is that in scripture?

So, I just spent my lunch hour at the library...productively, I might add.

 

So, as to the assertion that there's no scriptural basis for the Catholic belief in the Virgin Mary:

 

 

 

She is revered, and I don't see how you could argue the reverence. She's the MOTHER of Jesus! We don't place her above God, but we do revere her.

 

Revering is fine. Bestowing titles upon her that is reserved for the Holy Trinity crosses that line, IMO.

 

I'm having trouble finding in that passage where I can conclude that Mary is now Queen of all things, free from the stain of original sin, sinless all her life, and an advocate and mediator for us.

 

I have no problem with reverence...if it were just simply left at that.

 

It just seems odd to me that Mary is rarely, if ever, mentioned after the Gospels and Acts...it seems if she was All-Holy, sinless, a mediator and advocate that Paul, Peter, and others would have made some mention of her in their writings. But, that's just me I suppose.

Revering is fine. Bestowing titles upon her that is reserved for the Holy Trinity crosses that line, IMO.

 

I'm having trouble finding in that passage where I can conclude that Mary is now Queen of all things, free from the stain of original sin, sinless all her life, and an advocate and mediator for us.

 

I have no problem with reverence...if it were just simply left at that.

 

It just seems odd to me that Mary is rarely, if ever, mentioned after the Gospels and Acts...it seems if she was All-Holy, sinless, a mediator and advocate that Paul, Peter, and others would have made some mention of her in their writings. But, that's just me I suppose.

 

Actually, you're betowing titles on Mary that we do not.

 

And, does not the simple fact that she was chosen by God himself to bear His Son give credence to her Holiness and importance? Is not the choice of God enough?

 

There are mentions of Mary in the New Testemant, ie the Wedding at Canna.

In Louisville on a radio station 1240 the man archBisiop Kelly leads a group of people saying something. He says it and they repeat it. It always starts out Hail Mary full of Grace, and the people repeat it. Why is Mary mentioned and why is it repeated so much.

 

Jesus talks about repeating your prayer, not to do it.

Then you have just enunciated, according to your understanding of Catholic beliefs (and I am not sure that you are accurate about your Church's teaching here), two of perhaps the primary principal differences between Catholics and Protestants:

 

1. You believe that you can "earn" your way into Heaven. I do not. I think I state my faith's beliefs clearly when I tell you that I believe that there is no amount of good works you can do that will get you into Heaven, and that the ONLY way you can achieve salvation and enter into Heaven is by confessing your faith in Jesus Christ and submitting your life to Him. I think I state my faith's doctrine clearly when I state that this happens only once, at an identifiable moment in time, and that it cannot be un-done. This is why my faith believes that there can be a true death-bed conversion of a lifelong axe-murderer.

 

2. You believe that "everyone is born worthy of Heaven." I do not. I believe I state my faith's doctrine clearly when I state that we believe that because of the original Fall from grace, we are all born into sin and are destined for eternal dagnation unless we act to turn our lives over to Christ.

 

This is exactly my belief. Actually its what the bible teaches.

Actually its what the bible teaches.

As is the Catholic faith.

As is the Catholic faith.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

In Louisville on a radio station 1240 the man archBisiop Kelly leads a group of people saying something. He says it and they repeat it. It always starts out Hail Mary full of Grace, and the people repeat it. Why is Mary mentioned and why is it repeated so much.

 

Jesus talks about repeating your prayer, not to do it.

Why do you seem to have so much disdain for Catholicism? Can you say ANYTHING at all positive about Catholicism? Everyone else at least seems to want to learn, you seem to just want to point out errors.

 

In an earlier post you said that your chosen denomination had practices or rituals that were contrary to Biblical teaching. I'm still waiting for you to make a laundry list of them like you did with those YOU BELIEVE, NOT KNOW happen within Catholicism.

 

And yes, I am starting to get a little miffed with the tone of your posts in this thread.

In Louisville on a radio station 1240 the man archBisiop Kelly leads a group of people saying something. He says it and they repeat it. It always starts out Hail Mary full of Grace, and the people repeat it. Why is Mary mentioned and why is it repeated so much.

 

Jesus talks about repeating your prayer, not to do it.

 

This appears to be contradictory to Jesus's own actions.

 

And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Matthew 26:44

 

He went away again and prayed the same prayer as before. Mark 14:39

 

Jesus also instructed us to pray the "Our Father" And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Luke 11:2

 

So by following is command of saying this prayer when we pray wouldn't that be repetitious?

 

As far as what you heard on the radio, sounds like it was the rosary, however, I'd figure that you already know that. If not I'll provide an explaination.

 

The Rosary is a beautiful combination of vocal prayer and meditation that centers upon the greatest Gospel mysteries in the life of Jesus Christ and secondarily in the life of the Mother of Jesus. It is an "incarnational" prayer, a prayer consisting of both vocal and mental prayer that serves to incorporate both body and soul into spiritual communion with Our Lord. - Dr. Mark Miravalle, S.T.D.,

BTW Rockmom, love your new avatar.

Rockmom the older I get the more interested in the 1st christian religion I become. Is there a book on catholicism that you would recommend to someone just basically looking for his faith? I have read the bible but I am looking for a lay persons perspective of the catholic religion and a maybe a priest or bishops perspective.