June 28, 200719 yr AllTell..Paul talks about "false Teachers". I'm not going to mention what Religions I believe are false on here, I don't want to get in trouble. But it all has to do with scripture, not Alabama Larry. There are some things the Baptist do that is in scripture error...so if I feel that way about my own Faith, what would I say (scripture) about others. I'm a fair person. Here is a honest question. Divorce is mentioned in scripture several times. Matthew 19: I have a scripture based Divorce. My wife Cheated on me so Jesus says I can remarry. Now what about the Catholics? I was asked to attend several visits with a Father who help a buddy get a annualment after 20 years of marriage. There is no scripture verse for that, my buddy's wife cheated on him all he had to do is the legal stuff. Why is that? Catholics superscede Jesus? I'm in no way an expert on Catholicism and divorce, HOWEVER, the Sacrament of Marriage is (obviously) sacred. Therefore, the Church holds that marriage is forever. Civil divorce does not absolve one's religious committment. Remarriage without annulment is prohibited. As well, a marriage performed by a Catholic that is not presided over by a Catholic priest is not considerd a Catholic marriage. I'll dig up more....
June 28, 200719 yr I know this is a bit long, but I think it's worth reading for further discussion. For those who can't or won't take the time to read it all, I bolded some stuff, but I would encourage reading the full text. Points I find myself at odds with, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church... 982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.[527] Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.[528] 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."[402] "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."[403] 937 The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (CD 2). 890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms: 891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.[418] When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"[419] and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."[420] This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.[421] 1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.[51] 1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"[191] so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ: 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[510] 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."[506] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".[138] By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. 2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"[36] Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."[37] By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done." Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing[38] to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise. 958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."[498] Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. 100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. Article 3 2650 Prayer cannot be reduced to the spontaneous outpouring of interior impulse: in order to pray, one must have the will to pray. Nor is it enough to know what the Scriptures reveal about prayer: one must also learn how to pray. Through a living transmission (Sacred Tradition) within "the believing and praying Church,"[1] the Holy Spirit teaches the children of God how to pray. 460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":[78] "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."[79] "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."[80] "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."[81] 795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity: Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.[230] I don't claim infallibility when interpreting the Bible, but I have a hard time finding justification in Scripture for some of those statements. Some are a stretch to me, and then others are beyond that...I don't see how some of these conclusions can be reached and then defended. My intent is not to offend or come off as attacking...merely to point out some contentions I have with Catholic doctrine, and perhaps get a response/defense that might enlighten me a bit on such things.
June 28, 200719 yr Dang it! I need a Priest, a Bishop or St. Thomas Aquinas to become a member of BGP! :lol: I'm not theologian (although I did used to work at a Holiday Inn). 5W-I'll try to find some explanations among my sources. But I warn you...it may take a while.
June 28, 200719 yr AllTell..Paul talks about "false Teachers". I'm not going to mention what Religions I believe are false on here, I don't want to get in trouble. But it all has to do with scripture, not Alabama Larry. There are some things the Baptist do that is in scripture error...so if I feel that way about my own Faith, what would I say (scripture) about others. I'm a fair person. Here is a honest question. Divorce is mentioned in scripture several times. Matthew 19: I have a scripture based Divorce. My wife Cheated on me so Jesus says I can remarry. Now what about the Catholics? I was asked to attend several visits with a Father who help a buddy get a annualment after 20 years of marriage. There is no scripture verse for that, my buddy's wife cheated on him all he had to do is the legal stuff. Why is that? Catholics superscede Jesus? You believe what you believe and I don't agree with you. Whether intended or not several of your posts have a tone of "Catholic Bashing". The title of office is priest, he is addressed as Father. As to your question about marriage as Rockmom so eloquently stated we Catholics (and I'm sure mistakenly in some eyes) believe that Marriage is a Sacrament along with Baptism, Holy Eucharistic, Penance, Confirmation, Holy Orders (Priesthood) and Anointing of the Sick and Dying. As such there is a certain amount of preparation and commitment made when one is married in the church. A civil divorce dissolves a marriage legally but the church must dissolve the marriage as well because of it's status as a sacrament. It is not the divorce itself per se that causes the problems with the church, it's trying to remarry without an annulment because without an annulment the person is still married as far as the church is concerned. Maybe in your mind it equates to "Catholics superscede Jesus". It doesn't in my mind. All it does is confirm that there is a legitimate religious reason for dissolving the marriage. And to the bolded part, it is very much Alabama Larry as your views are based on how Alabama Larry interprets scriptures.
June 28, 200719 yr Dang it! I need a Priest, a Bishop or St. Thomas Aquinas to become a member of BGP! :lol: I'm not theologian (although I did used to work at a Holiday Inn). 5W-I'll try to find some explanations among my sources. But I warn you...it may take a while. No problem...I didn't exactly spout that post off the top of my head. :lol: I stayed at a Days Inn on my honeymoon. What does that count for?
June 28, 200719 yr I know this is a bit long, but I think it's worth reading for further discussion. For those who can't or won't take the time to read it all, I bolded some stuff, but I would encourage reading the full text. Points I find myself at odds with, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church... 982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.[527] Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.[528] 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."[402] "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."[403] 937 The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (CD 2). 890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms: 891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.[418] When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"[419] and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."[420] This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.[421] 1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.[51] 1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"[191] so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ: 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[510] 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."[506] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".[138] By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. 2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"[36] Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."[37] By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done." Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing[38] to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise. 958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."[498] Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. 100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. Article 3 2650 Prayer cannot be reduced to the spontaneous outpouring of interior impulse: in order to pray, one must have the will to pray. Nor is it enough to know what the Scriptures reveal about prayer: one must also learn how to pray. Through a living transmission (Sacred Tradition) within "the believing and praying Church,"[1] the Holy Spirit teaches the children of God how to pray. 460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":[78] "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."[79] "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."[80] "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."[81] 795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity: Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.[230] I don't claim infallibility when interpreting the Bible, but I have a hard time finding justification in Scripture for some of those statements. Some are a stretch to me, and then others are beyond that...I don't see how some of these conclusions can be reached and then defended. My intent is not to offend or come off as attacking...merely to point out some contentions I have with Catholic doctrine, and perhaps get a response/defense that might enlighten me a bit on such things. Very good, 5wide. I have a problem with the entire concept of "Mariology." Here, by the way, seems to be the Catholic Church's official statement regarding the question of unbaptised infant mortality: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html Its actually entertaining, and most of it I agree with, and believe my faith does, too. I am just getting into the Catechism. What IS abundantly clear to me is that Catholics believe that one MUST be baptised in order to achieve salvation. That is clearly different than the teachings of most Protestant denominations, which strongly desire baptism but do not make it a requisite for salvation. For anyone who is interested, here is a link to the Baptist Faith and Message: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/ Another key distinction between Catholics and Baptists (not necessarily Protestants), is that the Catholic Church is ecclesiastical, meaning that all property ownership and hierarchical authority for each individual church derives from a higher authority, and ultimately to Rome. In contrast, each individual Baptist church is completely and solely autonomous, owns its own property, governs itself, pays for itself, chooses its own pastors, makes its own constitutions and bylaws, and can choose to support hierarchical entities or not.
June 28, 200719 yr I found this going through the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" Therefore, it is clear to me that the official Catholic teaching is that a person cannot achieve salvation absent having accepted God's grace through faith. In the end, that's about all I need to know. All of the other stuff might be fluff, dogma, minor doctrine, or whatever you want to call it, but if a Catholic follows the essential teachings of his faith, he is a Christian.
June 28, 200719 yr AllTell..Paul talks about "false Teachers". I'm not going to mention what Religions I believe are false on here, I don't want to get in trouble. But it all has to do with scripture, not Alabama Larry. There are some things the Baptist do that is in scripture error...so if I feel that way about my own Faith, what would I say (scripture) about others. I'm a fair person. Here is a honest question. Divorce is mentioned in scripture several times. Matthew 19: I have a scripture based Divorce. My wife Cheated on me so Jesus says I can remarry. Now what about the Catholics? I was asked to attend several visits with a Father who help a buddy get a annualment after 20 years of marriage. There is no scripture verse for that, my buddy's wife cheated on him all he had to do is the legal stuff. Why is that? Catholics superscede Jesus? When Jesus came, he elevated matrimony to the same status it had originally possessed between Adam and Eve—the status of a sacrament. Thus, any valid marriage between two baptized people is a sacramental marriage and, once consummated, cannot be dissolved. Jesus, therefore, taught that if anyone so married divorces and remarries, that person is living in perpetual adultery, a state of mortal sin. He said, "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18; cf. Mark 10:11–12). Paul was equally insistent on this fact, declaring, "Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive" (Rom. 7:2–3). This applied, of course, only to sacramental marriages—those between baptized people. For marriages involving an unbaptized party, a different rule applied (1 Cor. 7:12–15). In the midst of the Greco-Roman culture, which allowed for easy divorce and remarriage, the early Church Fathers proclaimed Christ’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage—just as the Catholic Church does today in our modern, secular, easy-divorce culture (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1614–1615). Other denominations have modified their teachings to accommodate the pro-divorce ethos that dominates modern culture, but the Catholic Church preserves the teaching of Jesus and the early Christians. While their ex-spouses are alive, the only time that a baptized couple can remarry after divorce is when a valid sacramental marriage never existed in the first place. For example, for a marriage to be contracted, the two parties must exchange valid matrimonial consent. If they do not, the marriage is null. If the competent authority (a diocesan marriage tribunal) establishes this fact, a decree of nullity (commonly called an annulment) can be granted, and the parties are free to remarry (CCC 1629). In this case there is no divorce followed by remarriage in God’s eyes because there was no marriage before God in the first place, merely a marriage in the eyes of men. If, however, the parties are genuinely and sacramentally married, then, while in some cases there may be good reasons for them to live apart and even to obtain a legal separation, in God’s eyes they are not free to remarry (CCC 1649). This is not a commandment of men, but one that comes directly from Jesus Christ. As Paul said, "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband)—and that the husband should not divorce his wife" (1 Cor. 7:10-11). Fortunately, God will ensure that the sacramentally married have the grace necessary to live out their marriage vows and either stay married or live continently. The sacrament of matrimony itself gives this grace. Whenever we face a trial, God ensures that we will have the grace we need. As Paul elsewhere says, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).
June 28, 200719 yr I found this going through the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" Therefore, it is clear to me that the official Catholic teaching is that a person cannot achieve salvation absent having accepted God's grace through faith. In the end, that's about all I need to know. All of the other stuff might be fluff, dogma, minor doctrine, or whatever you want to call it, but if a Catholic follows the essential teachings of his faith, he is a Christian. Thanks, man! I feel vindicated now! :lol:
June 28, 200719 yr One other thing I can't help but cringe at is the way the pope is treated. I won't call it worship, but the way people bow before him and kiss his ring and all that stuff...I just don't agree with it. I have nothing against holding someone in high esteem, but when it crosses into the area of worship, or very close to worship, then I have a hang up with it. First, I think of people bowing down to the pope and kissing his hand/ring. Second, I think about Peter, the man the Catholics claim was the first pope. With that knowledge, you'd think Peter would be the prime example for a pope's behavior. So, how would he respond to something like that? Acts 10:24-26 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself." Again, just a personal preference I suppose, but it's not something I'm really comfortable with.
June 28, 200719 yr I don't claim infallibility when interpreting the Bible, but I have a hard time finding justification in Scripture for some of those statements. Some are a stretch to me, and then others are beyond that...I don't see how some of these conclusions can be reached and then defended. My intent is not to offend or come off as attacking...merely to point out some contentions I have with Catholic doctrine, and perhaps get a response/defense that might enlighten me a bit on such things. I think it's far too complex of a subject to be explained by just a few quotations.
June 28, 200719 yr I think it's far too complex of a subject to be explained by just a few quotations. THAT may very well be one of the primary objections to the faith. When an unbeliever comes to us and says "I want to know God," I think that it CAN be explained in a simple, concise, and easy-to-grasp manner, rather than being so complex that he ends up walking away, disgusted. The beauty of my faith is that it can be distilled down into a single, purifying statement - "Ask and ye shall receive."
June 28, 200719 yr THAT may very well be one of the primary objections to the faith. When an unbeliever comes to us and says "I want to know God," I think that it CAN be explained in a simple, concise, and easy-to-grasp manner, rather than being so complex that he ends up walking away, disgusted.As I see it, if they're so disinterested or willing to learn that they walk away disgusted, it's their problem...and their loss.
June 28, 200719 yr I think it's far too complex of a subject to be explained by just a few quotations. That's just another thing about the Catholic Church/doctrine that is not a preference of mine...they seem to make things much more complex and even confusing than they should be. 2 Corinthians 11:3 says "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." Don't mistake that as me calling the Catholic church evil by the first part of the verse...I merely was stressing the simplicity part of it. For example, who will go to heaven? The Bible says... "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36) "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24) The Catechism says... "By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints... and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died,... or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death,...) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without mediation of any creature." (#1023) It just seems like a lot of unnecessary lingo to me that I could see being overwhelming or discouraging to a new or young convert, whereas the Bible states it pretty clear and plain. Again, just a preference I suppose.
June 28, 200719 yr As I see it, if they're so disinterested or willing to learn that they walk away disgusted, it's their problem...and their loss. Interesting. Is Hearsay's use of the word disgusted what prompted such a blunt statement? Doesn't seem to fit your usual good natured approach.
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