LN, just going to post your initials instead of the entire, very good post.

 

Interesting view on the urban schools dropping the ball and I think it does have some merit. I think urban areas though that are not Highlands have a built in advantage over a Holmes/Newport. And I say that in the manner of it is an advantage that the school system has ZERO control over and can do little about. If Highlands and Newport were equal in athletic prowess, Highlands would still get the athletes and top students moving in because of the nature of the community. And that is something that Newport schools can do little about. I think the advantages is a point that you cannot argue about. Whether they are great enough to divide into classes is the point.

 

I put a thread together over a year ago on where I would divide. In a nutshell, I think it was open enrollment over 800 and under for two classes. Closed enrollment (and that could include private schools) over 800 and under for two classes. Not a perfect idea but a start. You can't divide all the advantages out. But I do think that you can have a better system than we presently have.

 

Great discussion with very good points for me to consider. Thanks LN.

 

I agree on Montgomery County. If I recall a conversation I had awhile ago correctly, they even competed in a boys division while in the MS. I do think it takes more of a commitment and effort to develop the rural schools ON A CONSISTENT BASIS.

Iroquois coach calls his team champs

 

I was waiting for this thread. It was only a matter of time.

 

Read the linked article and please tell me how Iroquois was able to rise above it's reputation. I spent several years at Iroquois in various capacities and for this to happen there is nothing short of miraculous. It has been implied in this thread that for Lexington Christian to achieve what they did in such a short time indicates the imfamous "unlevel playing field". As the article indicates in the 10 years prior to their present coach Iroquois won a TOTAL of 30 games and had 3 WINLESS seasons. Is the playing field "unlevel" in favor of Iroquois as well or do that just have a coach who has done an outstanding job of getting those kids to believe in themselves and in what they are doing there? If it can be done at Iroquois IMVHO it can be done anywhere.

 

And before anyone takes what I am saying out of context I am not implying at all that Iroquois has done anything wrong in fact because of my past affiliation with them I was pulling for them to win it all.

Interesting point on Iroquois is that they bring up the other often argued point on HS athletes. If they are the same girls, 2-3 years ago, they started, if I remember correctly, 2 8th graders on varsity and made the state tournament with the 2 8th graders.

 

That is of course a whole nother thread on that.

Lets limit our discussion on this sports board to sports. Name the nine counties and other state that Trinity has athletes from?

The other state is pretty obvious. Indiana. The counties can be gotten from their student addresses, but most of those will be pretty obvious as well. My information simply comes from a very in the know Trinity fan. We were having a discussion on the subject. He said himself that they only had kids from nine counties. It wasn't like they were getting them from all over the state. Yeah, nine isn't many at all. There was an accusation of a Red Hering. Do you claim that what I have stated is not the case. I just find it to be an attrosity that someone can cross the river to go to a school legally. I also find it to be an atrosity that you do not have to have an adress in the county of the school you attend, whether it is Catholic or not. I simply think these should be the rules to compete in KHSAA competition.

While he does have an abrasive edge LSU does have a point. There are numerous advantages to living in an urban setting vs. a rural one, most related to population size. There are more stores, hospitals, entertainment venues etc. in an urban area then in a rural area because there are more people to make them profitable.

 

Now the last time I checked people weren't being forced to live in rural areas, they choose to knowing that they will not have access to many of the amenities that urban dwellers have. If you feel it would be better for your kids to attend school in an urban environment then move. If you feel your kids are better off in a rural atmosphere that's fine as well BUT you can't make that decision and then complain about advantages that urban schools have.

You make some very good points and as I said in a post somewhere, the advantages shouldn't be the arguing point. THEY ARE THERE whether people want to admit to them or not. Whether they are enough to justify division is the point.

 

My view, I think it is. The advantages create a playing field that it is not a reasonable expectations for rurals to overcome.

 

I used the example months ago on golf. In Harrison County there is ONE golf course and a private one at that. While in Lexington and Louisville and NKY there are bunches of public courses. In Cynthiana if a person is born into a family that cannot afford to be a member of a country club, they are limited, very limited, in their ability to learn the game. And that same type of kid in a urban area has all sorts of options to learn the game.

 

An urban option that rurals do not have.

 

As far as advantages of rurals have over urban, can't really think of any.

Just wondering how many private schools are in the boys sweet sixteen this year?

 

Just one! How unfair for the privates! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regarding any advantage is that the privates have, the question is-what is the advantage?

Fletch suggests that the privates are paying the tuition for their athletes. Rock Pride pointed out, correctly, that this would be illegal if it occurred. I have never understood Fletch's argument. What if every private school athlete in every sport was permitted to attend school without having to pay any tuition? This would merely level the playing field. Private school athletes would then be paying the exact same tuition as public school athletes- $0.

Claude Henry Smmoott and Jay Bilas suggest that the private’s advantage comes from the fact that they take students from various counties surrounding their school by "luring" students to their school. Mr. Smmoott asserts that “I will continue rooting for my favorite teams and hope something or someone comes along and makes everyone play by the same set of rules." Guru has addressed this argument a number of times. There is no KHSAA rule against drawling students from various areas. As Guru has noted, much more succinctly, if one voluntarily chooses to self impose restrictions on oneself over and above the rules, one should not complain when others do not adhere to those self-imposed rules.

Finally, as to Jay Bilas assertion that we all know that the privates have the money, I share LSURock’s astonishment. The government pays for public schools. Every penny for private schools comes from the pocket of private school supporters. If public school supporters merely supported their schools with a fraction of what private school supporters support their schools with, the public’s financial advantage over the privates would be staggering. Again, one should not blame a competitor for working harder than he works. If private schools really have more money, why are private schools teachers paid less than public school teachers and why do they have fewer benefits? Indeed, often private schools have inferior facilities than public schools. As an example, look at Jefferson County area private schools. DeSales and St. Xavier have never had football stadiums. To my knowledge, every public school in Jefferson County that plays football has their own stadium.

I try to be open-minded about these issues. However, it is frustrating when I see the above excuses propounded over and over again by apologists for public schools when an examination of these excuses proves them to be false. So far, the only argument that I have heard from the public school proponents that seems irrefutable is the numerical advantage that St. Xavier and Trinity have over other schools in boys athletics, and even that advantage has been little, if any help to them in certain sports, such as basketball.

 

Here is a response to any Public v Private argument.

Just one! How unfair for the privates! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that none of them were private.

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that none of them were private.

 

 

I was wrong....even worse...NONE!!! That is very unfair! :lol: :lol:

What school broke the rules? The KHSAA let them get away with it? Why would it matter if it were varsity or JV? What school does the kid attend now? This sounds like one of those characters that writers make up to write a juicy story. Give us some facts. Thanks.

A private school broke the rules. I don't know what penalty, if any, was handed down. I don't remember reading anything about a penalty announced by the KHSAA. The kid went back to public school for a year then dropped out. Because he was a juvenile, I'm not going to give his name. I'm sure the allegation was forwarded to the KHSAA because his tuition magically ran out and he went back to public school and living in public housing. Use the PM if you want details.

I love how the private schools supporters like yourself who doesn't want to have a discussion but respond with sarcastic, arrogant comments like to pull out a 50 year old example that has ZERO relevance to today. Hoosiers doesn't happen today because Bobby Chitwood would be having his tuition paid for and attending a private school.

 

I apologize to the private school supporters who like to have open and honest conversations on the topic and discuss it like adults for the above comment.

 

So, if you agree that you guys in urban areas have an advantage what is your beef? You have admitted to it in this post.

I don't want to call you a liar, so I will ask you to put up or shut up as the rules of this site require. If you know of any "Bobby Chitwoods" getting a free ride, report it. I don't think they exist. I find your "know it all attitude" far more "sarcastic" and "arrogant" than my comments but this is an opinion board. What about the other analogies? It seems to me those inequities would bother you far more than who wins the girls state basketball trophy.

A private school broke the rules. I don't know what penalty, if any, was handed down. I don't remember reading anything about a penalty announced by the KHSAA. The kid went back to public school for a year then dropped out. Because he was a juvenile, I'm not going to give his name. I'm sure the allegation was forwarded to the KHSAA because his tuition magically ran out and he went back to public school and living in public housing. Use the PM if you want details.

Why can't you name the school? If they were found guilty by the KHSAA, wouldn't that be a matter of public record. No one minded naming names during the Mike Mitchell matter. Why is this different?

While he does have an abrasive edge LSU does have a point. There are numerous advantages to living in an urban setting vs. a rural one, most related to population size. There are more stores, hospitals, entertainment venues etc. in an urban area then in a rural area because there are more people to make them profitable.

 

Now the last time I checked people weren't being forced to live in rural areas, they choose to knowing that they will not have access to many of the amenities that urban dwellers have. If you feel it would be better for your kids to attend school in an urban environment then move. If you feel your kids are better off in a rural atmosphere that's fine as well BUT you can't make that decision and then complain about advantages that urban schools have.

 

This is a true statement of everyone living in a rural area. MANY people in rural areas cannot leave said areas for various financial reasons. They may be unable to afford to live in urban areas which tend to have a higher cost of living. Alos, many people cannot afford to leave rural areas due to their jobs. How many farmers or coal miners can live in an urban area, not to mention state police, military or various other government employees who have little say over where they are stationed? Of course many people do choose to reside in rural areas due to familial ties, generally lower crime rates, lower cost of living and a generally more peaceful way of life. Neither group, rural residents nor urbanites, are right or wrong to live where they do, but to say there are no inherent inequities in athletic opportunities is simply being ignorant of facts. Not saying that is right or wrong, just that it is...:thumb:

Gosh, opportunities in rural areas are not the same as in urban areas? Who would have guessed. I'd bet that the hospitals aren't equal as well. I guess we should force doctors to move to the country. I bet the per capita income is greater in the city as well, I guess you want to limit that as well. Then again, My risk of being shot is probably much greater than yours. I guess we should bus y'all some criminals. Then again if you are so concerned that your kids won't get to hoist a trophy, you could always move.

 

FYI, the movie "Hoosiers" wouldn't have been nearly as great if they only had to beat some other little country school at some tiny backwoods gym.

Wonderful post.

I love how the private schools supporters like yourself who doesn't want to have a discussion but respond with sarcastic, arrogant comments like to pull out a 50 year old example that has ZERO relevance to today. Hoosiers doesn't happen today because Bobby Chitwood would be having his tuition paid for and attending a private school.

Half at most.....which is still more expensive than free, I think :confused:

 

 

BTW, if we "urban" folk have an advantage...maybe that's where the split would be...urban champs, and rural champs...cool with me...who do you think would have more exposure then. Would that satisfy your need to crown everyone champion.

The other state is pretty obvious. Indiana. The counties can be gotten from their student addresses, but most of those will be pretty obvious as well. My information simply comes from a very in the know Trinity fan. We were having a discussion on the subject. He said himself that they only had kids from nine counties. It wasn't like they were getting them from all over the state. Yeah, nine isn't many at all. There was an accusation of a Red Hering. Do you claim that what I have stated is not the case. I just find it to be an attrosity that someone can cross the river to go to a school legally. I also find it to be an atrosity that you do not have to have an adress in the county of the school you attend, whether it is Catholic or not. I simply think these should be the rules to compete in KHSAA competition.

Football wise, I would say that we have kids that are from 4 counties.