You can poll this site, the world, the universe, and you'll find 7 people who puts their best hitter in the 2 hole. You're just not ever gonna get it. Oh, I agree numbers tell the tale in many aspects of the game. You're in the minority, but they're often right.

 

Because others are wrong too it doesn't make you right either. It's simple math not rocket science. I honestly think 10 years from now at least half the teams will hit their best hitter 2nd. I think the Reds will do it next year without some sort of pickup we don't know about yet. Barring a major improvement in left field Votto will hit 2nd like he should.

Should have never signed him to that deal. The Reds realize that now.

They had to sign him, if they didn't they take 4 steps backwards.

 

He is still a great hitter. Just hit in the wrong spot. He should have been #2 hitter aafter the allstar break and I said that since the all star break.

 

In the future once he gets his homerun stroke back you can move himm back to 3 hole, but last year he wasnt a 3 hitter.

The problem with the Reds isn't Joey Votto, it's that there are only 3 guys with an offensive threat on this team, Votto, Phillips and Bruce. No one else on the club is worth a squat when it comes to hitting. That isn't Votto's fault.

They had to sign him, if they didn't they take 4 steps backwards.

 

He is still a great hitter. Just hit in the wrong spot. He should have been #2 hitter aafter the allstar break and I said that since the all star break.

 

In the future once he gets his homerun stroke back you can move himm back to 3 hole, but last year he wasnt a 3 hitter.

The problem with the Reds isn't Joey Votto, it's that there are only 3 guys with an offensive threat on this team, Votto, Phillips and Bruce. No one else on the club is worth a squat when it comes to hitting. That isn't Votto's fault.

 

Exactly. The problem with making Votto your #2 hitter, is that he's also your best #3 hitter too. And, if Choo hadn't been here this year, you probably could've said he'd have been your best #1 too.

Votto is a 3 hitter talent wise with a 2 hole approach. Keep him at the 3, have him retool the approach slightly and he'll be back to being a super player. If he swings at more pitches his walks will go down, but so will his strikeouts.

Because others are wrong too it doesn't make you right either. It's simple math not rocket science. I honestly think 10 years from now at least half the teams will hit their best hitter 2nd. I think the Reds will do it next year without some sort of pickup we don't know about yet. Barring a major improvement in left field Votto will hit 2nd like he should.

 

To me, baseball is like the stock market. Yes, math and trends can tell you certain things should work throughout the course of a season. However, in certain situations the math can be wrong. It's like buying a stock that should take off but doesn't. Everything points to a rising stock but that doesn't automatically mean you will make money.

 

As far as the playoffs go, math is useless. Guys who kill it suck and guys who suck kill it in the playoffs. It's mind-boggling.

 

I refuse to say either side is 100% right because the human element will always be a factor.

Miguel Cabrerra, the undeniable best hitter in the game, hits 3rd. However, he did hit 2nd one game in the ALCS when Leyland was so disappointed in this leadoff guy he demoted him to 8th and moved the entire lineup up one spot. No math used there, when asked about the lineup change, Leyland's sabremetric answer was this "I don't know what the (expletive) else I can do. It's the best I've got."

Miguel Cabrerra, the undeniable best hitter in the game, hits 3rd. However, he did hit 2nd one game in the ALCS when Leyland was so disappointed in this leadoff guy he demoted him to 8th and moved the entire lineup up one spot. No math used there, when asked about the lineup change, Leyland's sabremetric answer was this "I don't know what the (expletive) else I can do. It's the best I've got."

 

Truth. The best managers are those that use sabermetrics AND their gut. You can't rely on one or the other and be successful.

To me, baseball is like the stock market. Yes, math and trends can tell you certain things should work throughout the course of a season. However, in certain situations the math can be wrong. It's like buying a stock that should take off but doesn't. Everything points to a rising stock but that doesn't automatically mean you will make money.

 

 

As far as the playoffs go, math is useless. Guys who kill it suck and guys who suck kill it in the playoffs. It's mind-boggling.

 

I refuse to say either side is 100% right because the human element will always be a factor.

 

Totally agree. Problem is a lot of current managers and GM's either don't know or understand the math.

Truth. The best managers are those that use sabermetrics AND their gut. You can't rely on one or the other and be successful.

 

Possibly but you would have a much better chance at success using math with no gut than no math and all gut.

I will predict one thing. Joey Votto will continue to be the scape goat next year for this team because it is put together so bad. They have the pitching to be succesful. They have 2, 3 and 5 hitter. If Choo leaves they don't have a 1, 4, 6, 7, 8 hitter. They need an entire new left side, 3rd baseman, SS, Left Fielder and a catcher that can hit.

 

This team will never be one to put up great offensive numbers when you only have 3 players that on a somewhat consistent basis put the bat on the ball.

The problem was here for years, it's never changed. The only thing that has really changed since Dusty got here was the pitching has improved. Thats it. The offense has always struggled and always will until the Reds open the pocket books and sign some bats.

Cozart, Frazier and Mesoraco are here to stay b/c o their price. To me they're all serviceable. Frazier is the most under appreciated player since Dunn unless its now Votto.

I was in favor of hitting Votto second this season due to he and Choo providing a ton of RBI chances for the 3,4,5 hitters. However, next season is a different story. If Hamilton is the leadoff hitter you will need a number 2 hitter that will take pitches so that he can steal bases and also be able to bunt. As fast as Hamilton is his numbers do not project him to be a great on base percentage guy. If he isn't the Reds must take advantage of his speed when he does get on. That means the number 2 hitter has to pass up some fastballs to let him get in scoring position and bunt him over when he gets on and steals. You don't want to let Votto only see fastballs when Hamilton is running and you don't want to curb Hamilton's running game. You need a Fernando Vina type hitting second next season.

I was in favor of hitting Votto second this season due to he and Choo providing a ton of RBI chances for the 3,4,5 hitters. However, next season is a different story. If Hamilton is the leadoff hitter you will need a number 2 hitter that will take pitches so that he can steal bases and also be able to bunt. As fast as Hamilton is his numbers do not project him to be a great on base percentage guy. If he isn't the Reds must take advantage of his speed when he does get on. That means the number 2 hitter has to pass up some fastballs to let him get in scoring position and bunt him over when he gets on and steals. You don't want to let Votto only see fastballs when Hamilton is running and you don't want to curb Hamilton's running game. You need a Fernando Vina type hitting second next season.

 

Reds fans are already livid that he takes too many pitches anyway. He has no issues taking pitches and hitting from behind in the count. He's actually the perfect two hitter if Hamilton hits first.

 

This World Series has shown exactly why you have to hit a great hitter 2nd. Beltran was up as the tying run in game 4 as the 2 hitter until the rookie stupidly got picked off first. Last night the 2 hitter was so bad that they pinch hit for him in the 9th so two guys combined for the 4 plate appearances while Beltran never got up in the 9th. It's pretty simple, there just aren't enough people that understand the data to do it yet.

I was in favor of hitting Votto second this season due to he and Choo providing a ton of RBI chances for the 3,4,5 hitters. However, next season is a different story. If Hamilton is the leadoff hitter you will need a number 2 hitter that will take pitches so that he can steal bases and also be able to bunt. As fast as Hamilton is his numbers do not project him to be a great on base percentage guy. If he isn't the Reds must take advantage of his speed when he does get on. That means the number 2 hitter has to pass up some fastballs to let him get in scoring position and bunt him over when he gets on and steals. You don't want to let Votto only see fastballs when Hamilton is running and you don't want to curb Hamilton's running game. You need a Fernando Vina type hitting second next season.

 

So, you want the Reds' best hitter to basically "give up" an at bat, and bunt? I'm not saying I'm against having Votto in the #2 hole...but, no way do I have him bunting with any regularity...especially if it's Hamilton on base.

I was in favor of hitting Votto second this season due to he and Choo providing a ton of RBI chances for the 3,4,5 hitters. However, next season is a different story. If Hamilton is the leadoff hitter you will need a number 2 hitter that will take pitches so that he can steal bases and also be able to bunt. As fast as Hamilton is his numbers do not project him to be a great on base percentage guy. If he isn't the Reds must take advantage of his speed when he does get on. That means the number 2 hitter has to pass up some fastballs to let him get in scoring position and bunt him over when he gets on and steals. You don't want to let Votto only see fastballs when Hamilton is running and you don't want to curb Hamilton's running game. You need a Fernando Vina type hitting second next season.

 

Based on what you're describing, it sounds like Votto would be an excellent #2 hitter behind Hamilton (assuming Hamilton can get on). A guy that takes a lot of pitches & can put the ball in play.