Without Votto (and Choo for his part) doing what they did last year, the Reds are a .500 team.

 

With a non-existent 2-hole hitter, and without these guys getting on base, Phillips and Bruce have maybe 80 RBI's.

 

Maybe Votto realized last year that his role was different from the past. They no longer had BP in the 2-hole to get on base and no longer had Ludwick behind Votto. With BP and Bruce having big years driving in runs, what else is he supposed to do? Check out the stat for runs created. Not just runs created for Votto that he drove in, but the runs Votto created for others in the lineup.

 

The guy has been one the best hitters in all of baseball in the time we have had him, yet we are on here bashing the guy for his approach. Is he really who we need to be addressing? How many guys do we have on the team hitting .300 or really even close to .300? Wait until this year, when everybody is "healthy" and back in their normal roles and see what kind of year Votto has.

Nobody is saying he had a bad year last year. But the one thin about his game that was alarming was his backwards K's. He had no confidence last year and I think the injury was a huge reason. This year his power numbers will be up and hopefully his K looking will be down.

Understood, but again.. is he the one we need to be talking about? Almost every AB Votto has (he saw the more pitches last year than any other hitter), led the league in OBP for the 4th straight year and walks for a 3rd straight year. He was 5th in runs, 6th in hits, 10th in batting average, 11th in slugging, 4th in OPS, 10 in overall WAR, and 4th in offensive WAR. Soo excuse me if i do not find all that much wrong with the guy's approach and i would sure as heck rather watch a Joey Votto AB as opposed to watching Bruce and BP flailing at 3 straight pitches that are 2 foot out of the strike zone.

Understood, but again.. is he the one we need to be talking about? Almost every AB Votto has (he saw the more pitches last year than any other hitter), led the league in OBP for the 4th straight year and walks for a 3rd straight year. He was 5th in runs, 6th in hits, 10th in batting average, 11th in slugging, 4th in OPS, 10 in overall WAR, and 4th in offensive WAR. Soo excuse me if i do not find all that much wrong with the guy's approach and i would sure as heck rather watch a Joey Votto AB as opposed to watching Bruce and BP flailing at 3 straight pitches that are 2 foot out of the strike zone.

 

It's all relative. No one is complaining about his complete approach. If you think 2013 Votto was as good as he can be there is nothing to discuss.

 

For the most part, those other guys are who they are. Votto was not who he had been, with 2 strikes.

 

Of course we would rather watch him hit vs the others you listed. That's not the point. We aren't comparing Votto to everyone else in the Reds lineup. We're comparing Votto to a standard he set that is VERY high.

. We're comparing Votto to a standard he set that is VERY high.

This is the entire argument from my point of view in a nutshell.

And to me that's the most asinine argument I have ever heard in my life. Same people were on here months ago talking about Ludwick and now talking about Votto. Stupid. Really really stupid. One of the best players to ever come through Cincinnati (which says a lot) and because he doesn't have a year like "you" expect him to have, he needs to change. Even last year, he had a very very good year, whether he was himself or not and none of this is even warranted. But in true Reds fan fashion, if its broke fix it and even if it works fix that too.

And to me that's the most asinine argument I have ever heard in my life. Same people were on here months ago talking about Ludwick and now talking about Votto. Stupid. Really really stupid. One of the best players to ever come through Cincinnati (which says a lot) and because he doesn't have a year like "you" expect him to have, he needs to change. Even last year, he had a very very good year, whether he was himself or not and none of this is even warranted. But in true Reds fan fashion, if its broke fix it and even if it works fix that too.

You need to slow your roll homey, this has become nitpick central. If you've participated in this whole thing, or at least read it, then you need to retrace the steps to get here. First, he has a LONG way to go to be considered one of the best to play in the Queen City. LOOOOOONG WAY.

 

Secondly, no one says he's not elite. If you think in this era that there aren't going to be argument over approach, stats, jock size, sexual preference, hair care product, twitter handle, the automobile he rolls in, his breath mints,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, you're not paying attention to what's going on around us.

 

I'm done in this one. And I'll agree with you, it's reached epic stupid proportion.

 

 

Not sure I ever mentioned Ludwick ever, other than I'd like to see him eat less money.

One second your telling me to slow my role then the next you say you agree this thread has reached epic stupid proportion..

 

1 of 12 players in the Reds history to win an MVP award. Stats I am not even going to start on because you wouldn't like how that would end. And I am not your homey and I will not slow my role. Just the same as you all have the right to get on here and talk all of these idiocracies, I too have the right to say when I think its stupid that people even have this conversation.

Joey Votto K'd looking too much for Joey Votto in 2013. I don't care what anyone else thinks. If you can't see it that's a you problem.

 

2013's issue was offense. We are discussing offense. Does it means he is off limits because he had a better year than everyone else? No. Because he didn't have a Votto year.

Considering the year Votto had and the year other Reds had.. Ya I'd say he's not touchable. You wanna talk offense then talk about the year out left side of the infield had, talk about our left field situation, talk about our catchers, that's where your problem is.

Or maybe lets talk about the center field situation that we are expecting Billy Hamilton to step into. The guy who hit .256 and had a .308 OBP last year in the minors. With all due respect we aren't talking about offense on here. We are talking about how one of the top 10 hitters in the National League (stats proven, not opinion) who consistently puts up good numbers and creates runs needs to change his approach.

Considering the year Votto had and the year other Reds had.. Ya I'd say he's not touchable. You wanna talk offense then talk about the year out left side of the infield had' date=' talk about our left field situation, talk about our catchers, that's where your problem is.[/quote']

 

All valid issues with this team. However, it's a Joey Votto thread soooooo...

Which would be why I was talking about Joey Votto. You brought up that this was a discussion about offense. Well the offense isnt just Joey Votto.. So where ya going with it? Either way it comes back to the things being said on here is crazy. If you wanna say he wasn't his typical self. Okay I can see that a little, but at the same time if he wasn't himself and he still put numbers up to be 6th in MVP voting.. Well.. That only furthers my point of how erroneous this entire thread is. Joey Votto is not the problem and never was.

I think a lot of it is that Votto does a lot of things that aren't considered what my old coach liked to call "sexy" stats. He does the grunt work that is incredibly valuable but never really taken into consideration. For example if Votto goes 0-0 with 5 walks people say he's not earning his paycheck or tht he's not the same Votto. Because nobody sees him or cares that he scored 3-4 times that game, or that his walk moved a man into scoring position, or more importantly than that he just saw close to 40 pitches and made the other team go to their bullpen when a starter may be wearing the rest of the team out like BP Cozart and Bruce who are always prone to 2-3 pitch ab's. Then people talk about him needing to swing more. Well if runners are at the corners or a runners at first and he chases a pitch he can't handle and rolls into a dp then what good does that do? If he strikes out then he leves Bruce and BP a shot to drive in runs. Strikeouts suck, I realize that. But sometimes they're not always the end of the world and sometimes are better than the alternative.

Did he take more called thirds? I'm confused. Crash, I need intervention. Or need to become an A's fan. I've determined that Reds fans on this board, especially since LRCW has departed, have reached a new level.