I am sure you would agree then the teaching should take place before "the act".

 

 

We're talking about two different things then. And sex ed on it's own won't curb pregnancy or abortion. So no...I'm still not talking about the kind of teaching that you are talking about. To stop abortion, the issue has to be tackled from several fronts. You can't teach self respect in school. And it won't stop abortions.

 

You want to make it seem as if I'm advocating funding for something so you can denegrate the idea as unrealistic and "Democrat". The solutions that have to be put in place aren't partisan. And many of the people I've worked with over the years in trying to help these girls and women are distinctly apolitical. They volunteer their time and own resources for a cause they believe in and politics play no part. What we've all realized is that the issue of abortion can't be legislated away. It's a matter of showing these women another way. It's about talking through their decision process with them. It's about guiding them to ALL their options, and helping them find the resources they need. It's sometimes about going with a young girl to tell her parents because she's terrified to do so. Sometimes it's about helping a woman who is trapped in an abusive marriage find a safe place to go with her other childrend, and getting her set up with appointments for aid. It always involves giving the girl or woman your contact information so they know they have someone to call at the most difficult points they face. One woman I have worked with went with a woman to tell her husband, who was clear that he didn't want children. Sometimes it's about helping a young woman learn how she will be able to have a life despite being a single mother. Other times it's about teaching a woman that giving up her baby doesn't mean she's a terrible person or mother...that it is likely more "mothering" than the situation she would face keeping the baby, and definitely more than if she'd aborted it. Many times it's about keeping in contact with a woman after she gives birth and making sure she is doing well. Because the last thing any of us want is that she has the baby despite her feeling that it will be inconvenient, and after convincing her to have the baby, it wind up neglected or abused. It's an ongoing process. And it is different for every single woman, just as the reasons are different for every single woman considering abortion.

 

You can try and throw some "namby-pamby" label on me. Go ahead. It makes not one bit of difference, because I KNOW what I advocate works. I've lived it. I KNOW what it takes to convince a woman to keep her child. I KNOW what the stories and situations are. I KNOW....and if it's "namby-pamby liberal"....then I'm absolutely proud to wear the label you use as a slur with pride. I'm proud because I know I am really doing all I can, and that it has nothing to do with politics. I'm happy because someone I didn't know took the time to help me through a similar situation when I was 19 and pregnant, and I look at my 26 year old daughter's face and know I did the right thing. I'm happy and proud to call that woman my mentor and my inspiration.

I asked the question if I was reading it correctly that some, not you in particular, was advocation abortion as a way to control global population and not one person said no, not one.

 

And to answer you question and this is the 3rd time I have answered the same question. I have no idea, never thought about it and don't feel qualified.

 

All I'm saying is it would be nice if those ardent anti-abortion advocates considered the law of unintended consequences attached to the success of their cause, and it would also be nice if they were as worried about the people who are already here than those who might show up.

I do want to take a moment and throw out this: The people I am associated with....we're a "loose" network. We're not affiliated with any organization. We're comprised of almost all women. There are three gentlemen in our network....all are gay. I've often wondered where the alpha males are....

All I'm saying is it would be nice if those ardent anti-abortion advocates considered the law of unintended consequences attached to the success of their cause, and it would also be nice if they were as worried about the people who are already here than those who might show up.

 

I get where you are coming from but like I said I really have no idea. On the other hand what if we stopped curing deseases that don't spread like cancer? For the record, I don't think it's a good idea nor am I in favor but the results would be the same. Afterall, a lot of the over population issues is a direct result of medical advancements.

I asked the question if I was reading it correctly that some, not you in particular, was advocation abortion as a way to control global population and not one person said no, not one.

 

And to answer you question and this is the 3rd time I have answered the same question. I have no idea, never thought about it and don't feel qualified.

 

I never said that I advocated abortion as a way to control world population or even if I advocate legal abortions at all. I did not answer your question simply because you never answered mine.

As for the overpopulation issue, here's my non-linked logic. Let's say that we have a group of 30yo women who have all had at least one abortion. Out of those women, how many went on to have children? If so, and those women who had abortions and later had children hadn't aborted those unwanted children, how many would have continued having children? My guess is that the increase wouldn't remotely be a straight exponential line. I dare say that the increase wouldn't be as dramatic as we would like to argue here.

 

I have no idea how we got to this place, and I hate that abortion happens too. But in the long run, if that ever became illegal with stipulations (whatever that may be) I think that over time you'd see less promiscuity. The convenience of abortion has changed the sexual climate forever barring a change in the law in my opinion. Does that seem logical?

I seriously do not believe that even 1% of sexually active people have sex thinking, "oh, well...if I/we get pregnant, we can just have an abortion."

I seriously do not believe that even 1% of sexually active people have sex thinking, "oh, well...if I/we get pregnant, we can just have an abortion."

 

Thank you. That line of thinking is highly illogical. The availability of abortions did little to increase promiscuity, especially when you consider the impact the pill had on promiscuity. Spindoc, if promiscuity is your cause celebre, you should be fighting against the availability of the pill.

I do want to take a moment and throw out this: The people I am associated with....we're a "loose" network. We're not affiliated with any organization. We're comprised of almost all women. There are three gentlemen in our network....all are gay. I've often wondered where the alpha males are....

 

Impregnating the women you're trying to help...

I read an interesting short story in one of those "best of the year sci-fi compendiums many years ago (late 60s?) by Andrew Offutt (from Haldeman, KY; father of noted author Chris Offutt) entitled "Population Implosion". The premise was that there were only so many souls to go around and that because they were all used up, everyone over the age of (some high number like 90) died at the same time. As people kept being born, the age at which people died kept getting lower and lower. International bans on procreation didn't keep China from secretly "overpopulating"; thereby accumulating a larger and larger share of the world's population.

 

Unfortunately I cannot remember how the story ended (40+ years and a number of, shall we say, "substances" have passed under the bridge since then.

 

PS - while I am firmly in the pro-choice camp; I am not of the belief that abortion should be viewed as a panacea for population control. There is a fascinating chapter in "Freakonomics" that examines crime statistics as a function of when Roe v. Wade was implemented. As I recall, some states legalized abortions a couple of years earlier than RVW and they experienced a sharp reduction in crime that same couple of years earlier than the rest of the nation. Here is discussion:

 

gladwell.com: Thoughts on Freakonomics

Thank you. That line of thinking is highly illogical. The availability of abortions did little to increase promiscuity, especially when you consider the impact the pill had on promiscuity. Spindoc, if promiscuity is your cause celebre, you should be fighting against the availability of the pill.

I'm not sure that the 1% is genuine among high school age girls. Safety net.

 

And my point continues to be lost in my argument obviously. Something has got to give with the # of abortions each and every year. We don't have any real data, only speculation on how things would change if abortion was no longer an option.

I read an interesting short story in one of those "best of the year sci-fi compendiums many years ago (late 60s?) by Andrew Offutt (from Haldeman, KY; father of noted author Chris Offutt) entitled "Population Implosion". The premise was that there were only so many souls to go around and that because they were all used up, everyone over the age of (some high number like 90) died at the same time. As people kept being born, the age at which people died kept getting lower and lower. International bans on procreation didn't keep China from secretly "overpopulating"; thereby accumulating a larger and larger share of the world's population.

 

Unfortunately I cannot remember how the story ended (40+ years and a number of, shall we say, "substances" have passed under the bridge since then.

 

PS - while I am firmly in the pro-choice camp; I am not of the belief that abortion should be viewed as a panacea for population control. There is a fascinating chapter in "Freakonomics" that examines crime statistics as a function of when Roe v. Wade was implemented. As I recall, some states legalized abortions a couple of years earlier than RVW and they experienced a sharp reduction in crime that same couple of years earlier than the rest of the nation. Here is discussion:

 

gladwell.com: Thoughts on Freakonomics

I really enjoyed that chapter. Freakanomics as a whole was fascinating.

I'm not sure that the 1% is genuine among high school age girls. Safety net.

 

And my point continues to be lost in my argument obviously. Something has got to give with the # of abortions each and every year. We don't have any real data, only speculation on how things would change if abortion was no longer an option.

 

Are you kidding? I can't believe you said "among high school age girls". What about the boys who are just and randy as girls? ARRRGGHHH! THIS is another issue that needs to be corrected! And frankly, I doubt many on BGP will agree with me, given response in the threads I've read about the teacher/student issues. This is galling...especially to me, as I KNOW just how responsible many men/boys are for abortions!

 

As to the speculation about the numbers changing...maybe there would be fewer if it were illegal. But it would be even harder to get the data...as it wouldn't be reported. Wake up people! The issue isn't in the legislation!

Are you kidding? I can't believe you said "among high school age girls". What about the boys who are just and randy as girls? ARRRGGHHH! THIS is another issue that needs to be corrected! And frankly, I doubt many on BGP will agree with me, given response in the threads I've read about the teacher/student issues. This is galling...especially to me, as I KNOW just how responsible many men/boys are for abortions!

 

As to the speculation about the numbers changing...maybe there would be fewer if it were illegal. But it would be even harder to get the data...as it wouldn't be reported. Wake up people! The issue isn't in the legislation!

Hold on mom, I'm not limiting that to girls. I know surely it's a 2 edged sword. Takes 2 to tango. I'm not shirking the responsibility of the male in this thing. But the bottom line is that the boys don't have one ounce of say in the medical portion of the procedure.

 

I have a friend whose daughter has had 2 abortions. Heard her with my own ears, she knew if it happened the 2nd time that she'd be able to get rid of it. While not the norm, it happens more than we would like to admit. He's taken her to counseling and all the rest. I don't have any data to support that theory, only first hand from his issues with her. She isn't the only one in that category either.

Edited September 18, 201214 yr by spindoc

Spindoc, you'll have to explain to me how I misunderstood your post.