My wife and I have four children. Three are still with us on this side of eternity. One lived six months before graduating. He is very much a part of our family and we still love him very much. We look forward to seeing him again one day. So, if I am following your reasoning, the fact that he was actually born alive and lived with us for a time before his body gave out... he was even more real than a child that was miscarried.

 

The point is, my wife and I both respond most often with "three" when asked how many children we have. This is a courtesy, as much as anything, to those asking. It certainly does not mean that our son is not loved and important to us, he absolutely is. It's just that few people we encounter are genuinely interested in our story. This is similar to how we respond, "very well, thank you" when someone inquires how we are doing. By saying, "How are you?" most inquirers are not actually seeking the full depth of our physical and emotional condition. They are merely being pleasant. They do not care to hear our details or travails.

 

The bottom line is, regardless of the value humans place on these discarded or prematurely departed children, I know with all my heart they are very precious to our loving God.

 

Your assumption as to my reasoning is not correct. Before I respond let me tell you that I would never be able to comprehend what you and your wife went through. My sister lost her first born when she was 21 years old. I have seen the struggle up close. Kudos to you and your wife for keeping your marriage intact.

 

The original reason for my question is simple. I never hear anyone say they had a child that died if the child was lost due to a miscarriage. I hear it in cases like yours and my sister. It seems odd because I bet many of those who suffered the tragedy of miscarriage believe that deapite the miscarriage happening so early in the pregnancy they believed a human life was lost.

 

IMO we as a society treat that "human life"as being less than your son or my niece. Even those that firmly believe a human exists at conception seem inconsistent. Agree?

Your assumption as to my reasoning is not correct. Before I respond let me tell you that I would never be able to comprehend what you and your wife went through. My sister lost her first born when she was 21 years old. I have seen the struggle up close. Kudos to you and your wife for keeping your marriage intact.

 

The original reason for my question is simple. I never hear anyone say they had a child that died if the child was lost due to a miscarriage. I hear it in cases like yours and my sister. It seems odd because I bet many of those who suffered the tragedy of miscarriage believe that deapite the miscarriage happening so early in the pregnancy they believed a human life was lost.

 

IMO we as a society treat that "human life"as being less than your son or my niece. Even those that firmly believe a human exists at conception seem inconsistent. Agree?

I may still be misunderstanding you. If so, be patient.

 

If I'm understanding what you're saying, a miscarried baby does not rise to the same emotional level as the death of a child carried to term and born alive, because some believe a fetus that does not reach full term and is born alive, is not fully human.

 

I won't presume to speak for anyone but myself here. I would very much mourn the loss of a son or daughter whether by miscarriage or later loss. Every child from conception to 100 years of age is a full card carrying member of the human race IMO.

 

My point in saying that my wife and I do not go around telling everyone about our son that is no longer with us, is not because he's not incredibly special and important to us, but rather, it's a courtesy to others who typically don't have a clue about handling something like that. It's too personal for us, and too much for them.

 

If we are reluctant to talk to anyone and everyone about our son... a full fledged human by all current and acceptable standards... I would imagine those who've experienced the heartache of a miscarriage feel and do the same... and not because that child was not a qualified human.

I may still be misunderstanding you. If so, be patient.

 

If I'm understanding what you're saying, a miscarried baby does not rise to the same emotional level as the death of a child carried to term and born alive, because some believe a fetus that does not reach full term and is born alive, is not fully human.

 

I won't presume to speak for anyone but myself here. I would very much mourn the loss of a son or daughter whether by miscarriage or later loss. Every child from conception to 100 years of age is a full card carrying member of the human race IMO.

 

My point in saying that my wife and I do not go around telling everyone about our son that is no longer with us, is not because he's not incredibly special and important to us, but rather, it's a courtesy to others who typically don't have a clue about handling something like that. It's too personal for us, and too much for them.

 

If we are reluctant to talk to anyone and everyone about our son... a full fledged human by all current and acceptable standards... I would imagine those who've experienced the heartache of a miscarriage feel and do the same... and not because that child was not a qualified human.

 

I wish I was letting you buy me a beverage so that we could communicate better. I am obviously struggling.

I wish I was letting you buy me a beverage so that we could communicate better. I am obviously struggling.

Nothing like a good beverage filter to straighten things out... :thumb:

So, if I can ask a specificl question/example (ie not too personal), do you say " I have X number of kids but used to have Y number of kids?"

 

Unfortunately, I know way too many people who have suffered through this. However, I've never heard them refer to them as their children.

 

Regardless, God bless you. I can't imagine going through that.

I have heard the family in question say something to that effect before .

We don't live in a random universe. Everything happens -- and everyone is born -- for a reason.

 

I agree with Birdie... I do not view God as some cosmic watchmaker who constructed a universe of incomprehensible complexity, wound it, set it in motion and then retired to occasionally glance at it to see what time it is. I sincerely believe He is far more involved and interested in us and our existence than we can imagine.

 

 

I wish I could be so sure, but when I look at all the suffering of this world -- a great deal of which is brought about by overpopulation -- I can't help but think God has a big TV room and just sits back and watches it all unfold. To think God has an active role in any of it (much different from the active role He plays in the Bible, incidentally) and "has His reasons," can only lead me to conclude God has a sick, twisted sense of humor. The other way is easier to wrap my mind around.

I know many in both camps who accept abortion under the banner of “a woman’s right to choose”. There are persuasive arguments for intervention in cases of rape, incest, the mother’s health, and potentially debilitating disease or handicaps for the child. But even the most liberal interpretation of these does not comprise more than 4% of all abortions performed in the United States. Over 95% of the 50 million abortions performed in the U.S. since the passage of Roe vs. Wade in 1972 have been for little more than convenience as a form of post-conception birth control. That’s 47 million American children killed for little more than the convenience or social standing of the parents. That’s 47 million children unable to learn and grow and work and pay taxes to offset the burden of the now retiring Baby Boomers. That’s 47 million innocent lives snuffed out for no crime on their part whatsoever. And I can’t help but believe that we, as a people, are facing a stern judgment for allowing this murderous spree of innocents to occur.

 

WOW! Powerful stuff! Thank you!

I wish I could be so sure, but when I look at all the suffering of this world -- a great deal of which is brought about by overpopulation -- I can't help but think God has a big TV room and just sits back and watches it all unfold. To think God has an active role in any of it (much different from the active role He plays in the Bible, incidentally) and "has His reasons," can only lead me to conclude God has a sick, twisted sense of humor. The other way is easier to wrap my mind around.

Augustine argued that though Christians face the difficulty of explaining the presence of evil in the universe, the pagan has a problem that is twice as difficult. Before one can even have a problem of evil, one must first have a prior existence of the good. In other words… the acknowledgement of unrighteousness requires a prior awareness of righteousness. Without God there is no ultimate standard for the good.

 

While there is no doubt that evil exists in the world, and if God is truly good and holy, He cannot be the instigator of evil. If He is truly omnipotent He must-in His goodness-allow evil to occur here and since His supreme decisions reflect the perfection of His being, we must assume that His choice to allow evil to exist is a good decision.

 

I agree with you (I think) that life would be so much better without suffering or evil in this world. But, if that were the case, our conscious need for God would evaporate… even though it would be Him that made a blissful world possible. We are basically like many children… selfish and ungrateful. A world without evil would only exacerbate these traits. Why look to God when everything is rosy?

 

I can honestly say that Heaven will be all the more sweet and appreciated after experiencing life separated from God and under the influence of evil.

Augustine argued that though Christians face the difficulty of explaining the presence of evil in the universe, the pagan has a problem that is twice as difficult. Before one can even have a problem of evil, one must first have a prior existence of the good. In other words… the acknowledgement of unrighteousness requires a prior awareness of righteousness. Without God there is no ultimate standard for the good.

 

While there is no doubt that evil exists in the world, and if God is truly good and holy, He cannot be the instigator of evil. If He is truly omnipotent He must-in His goodness-allow evil to occur here and since His supreme decisions reflect the perfection of His being, we must assume that His choice to allow evil to exist is a good decision.

 

I agree with you (I think) that life would be so much better without suffering or evil in this world. But, if that were the case, our conscious need for God would evaporate… even though it would be Him that made a blissful world possible. We are basically like many children… selfish and ungrateful. A world without evil would only exacerbate these traits. Why look to God when everything is rosy?

 

I can honestly say that Heaven will be all the more sweet and appreciated after experiencing life separated from God and under the influence of evil.

 

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just conflicted. I don't just dismiss things so easily under the "God has his reasons" banner.

 

Not "flickdid" as others might offer, however.

We don't live in a random universe. Everything happens -- and everyone is born -- for a reason.

 

And you must believe and trust that it does happen for a reason! Pro-life has always been my identiity. Never ever doubted or faltered--never had a reason to. Until the unexpected happened at age 43. Already struggling to raise 4 --financially, physically, emotionally etc. I am ashamed to admit the thoughts that went through my head at the time. "Maybe if I went for a really long run and got completely exhausted...maybe if I had a bad fall...maybe if I stopped eating."

Fast Forward 3 years. I thank God every day for this amazing GIFT that at first we did not want. I get down on my knees every day to ask forgiveness that I was initially wishing for a different outcome. I cringe when I try to imagine my family's life without him. Everything happens -- and everyone is born -- for a reason.

And you must believe and trust that it does happen for a reason! Pro-life has always been my identiity. Never ever doubted or faltered--never had a reason to. Until the unexpected happened at age 43. Already struggling to raise 4 --financially, physically, emotionally etc. I am ashamed to admit the thoughts that went through my head at the time. "Maybe if I went for a really long run and got completely exhausted...maybe if I had a bad fall...maybe if I stopped eating."

Fast Forward 3 years. I thank God every day for this amazing GIFT that at first we did not want. I get down on my knees every day to ask forgiveness that I was initially wishing for a different outcome. I cringe when I try to imagine my family's life without him. Everything happens -- and everyone is born -- for a reason.

You are truly to be commended, hoops5! You are an example to all of us, and prove what love, commitment and faith can do. :thumb:

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just conflicted. I don't just dismiss things so easily under the "God has his reasons" banner.

 

Not "flickdid" as others might offer, however.

I've been on the road and could not respond until now. I have no doubt that God is big enough to address all the questions we may throw at Him. I do believe it is important for us to pursue Him with our questions, and not just pose the questions to each other and leave them at that. Jesus tells us to knock and keep knocking and the door will be opened to us.

I wish I could be so sure, but when I look at all the suffering of this world -- a great deal of which is brought about by overpopulation -- I can't help but think God has a big TV room and just sits back and watches it all unfold. To think God has an active role in any of it (much different from the active role He plays in the Bible, incidentally) and "has His reasons," can only lead me to conclude God has a sick, twisted sense of humor. The other way is easier to wrap my mind around.

The peoples of the Old Testament believed in the "Law of Retribution," which basically holds that all suffering is punishment from God. But Jesus, in the Gospels rejected this thinking and spoke of a loving, compassionate Father, who "makes the sun rise on the bad and the good" -- a God who healed the blind man. When asked if the man had been stricken blind as punishment for his sins or those of his parents, Jesus replied that it was so that the works of God could be made visible through him.

I think you need to add all of the above as the last option for the poll.

If we accept the argument that it is the right to do what you want with your body, I offer the following for consideration.

 

a) Police, ambulance, EMT's, shouldn't respond to those who are seeking to commit suicide and should be allowed to do so cause it is their body and if a women has the right to end the life of an unborn child, why would you not have the right to end your own life?

 

b) If a doctor can assist a woman to end the life of an unborn child because it is her body, than a doctor should be allowed to assist in any person who wishes to end their own life.

 

c) Prostitution should be legalized as it is a woman choosing to do what they want with their own body?

 

d) All drugs should be legalized as it is a person choosing what to do with their own body.

 

I counter that argument that we cannot outlaw abortion because of a woman's right to do what they wish with their own body, with the point THAT WE DO THAT ALREADY in some of the above examples.