I've never heard any family claim as children any pregnancy that resulted in a miscarriage.

 

Why?

 

I have actually.

I have actually.

 

So, if I can ask a specificl question/example (ie not too personal), do you say " I have X number of kids but used to have Y number of kids?"

 

Unfortunately, I know way too many people who have suffered through this. However, I've never heard them refer to them as their children.

 

Regardless, God bless you. I can't imagine going through that.

We don't live in a random universe. Everything happens -- and everyone is born -- for a reason.

 

My question might detour the thread, but if this is true then does it not extend to abortions, miscarriages, deaths, et cetera? In other words, if everyone is born for a cosmic, divine reason, then would that not also apply to those not born?

My question might detour the thread, but if this is true then does it not extend to abortions, miscarriages, deaths, et cetera? In other words, if everyone is born for a cosmic, divine reason, then would that not also apply to those not born?

No, because man was created with free will. So he has the capacity to subvert the divine plan. And these sins create further chaos in the world, like smoke from a distant fire.

No, because man was created with free will. So he has the capacity to subvert the divine plan. And these sins create further chaos in the world, like smoke from a distant fire.

 

If I understand you correctly, though, it seems this is incompatible with the idea that everyone is born for a reason. Isn't the act of conception part of free will?

No, because man was created with free will. So he has the capacity to subvert the divine plan. And these sins create further chaos in the world, like smoke from a distant fire.

 

I believe that also, man is born to free will and will to choose to do good or bad. Just like a man is not born gay, he chooses to be gay. God would not allow a man to be born gay.

So, if I can ask a specificl question/example (ie not too personal), do you say " I have X number of kids but used to have Y number of kids?"

 

Unfortunately, I know way too many people who have suffered through this. However, I've never heard them refer to them as their children.

 

Regardless, God bless you. I can't imagine going through that.

 

My mother has 5 living children. She lost a daughter at the age of 2. She had 2 miscarriages. When asked she tells people that she has 5 children. If I'm reading your logic correctly are you suggesting that since my mother doesn't immediately tell people that she had a child that died as a baby that my sister somehow didn't exist?

If I understand you correctly, though, it seems this is incompatible with the idea that everyone is born for a reason. Isn't the act of conception part of free will?

God's reasoning and Man's reasoning are two different things.

God's reasoning and Man's reasoning are two different things.

 

You might have to talk to me like I'm stupid here as I'm not following where you are making this distinction. If everything happens for a reason, but man has free-will and can subvert the divine plan then how do you know which is which?

So, if I can ask a specificl question/example (ie not too personal), do you say " I have X number of kids but used to have Y number of kids?"

 

Unfortunately, I know way too many people who have suffered through this. However, I've never heard them refer to them as their children.

 

Regardless, God bless you. I can't imagine going through that.

My wife and I have four children. Three are still with us on this side of eternity. One lived six months before graduating. He is very much a part of our family and we still love him very much. We look forward to seeing him again one day. So, if I am following your reasoning, the fact that he was actually born alive and lived with us for a time before his body gave out... he was even more real than a child that was miscarried.

 

The point is, my wife and I both respond most often with "three" when asked how many children we have. This is a courtesy, as much as anything, to those asking. It certainly does not mean that our son is not loved and important to us, he absolutely is. It's just that few people we encounter are genuinely interested in our story. This is similar to how we respond, "very well, thank you" when someone inquires how we are doing. By saying, "How are you?" most inquirers are not actually seeking the full depth of our physical and emotional condition. They are merely being pleasant. They do not care to hear our details or travails.

 

The bottom line is, regardless of the value humans place on these discarded or prematurely departed children, I know with all my heart they are very precious to our loving God.

My wife and I have four children. Three are still with us on this side of eternity. One lived six months before graduating. He is very much a part of our family and we still love him very much. We look forward to seeing him again one day. So, if I am following your reasoning, the fact that he was actually born alive and lived with us for a time before his body gave out... he was even more real than a child that was miscarried.

 

The point is, my wife and I both respond most often with "three" when asked how many children we have. This is a courtesy, as much as anything, to those asking. It certainly does not mean that our son is not loved and important to us, he absolutely is. It's just that few people we encounter are genuinely interested in our story. This is similar to how we respond, "very well, thank you" when someone inquires how we are doing. By saying, "How are you?" most inquirers are not actually seeking the full depth of our physical and emotional condition. They are merely being pleasant. They do not care to hear our details or travails.

 

The bottom line is, regardless of the value humans place on these discarded or prematurely departed children, I know with all my heart they are very precious to our loving God.

 

I've never heard it described in these terms. Very well done. I was 10 when me sister passed 40 years ago. There are still times when I talk about her that I choke up. I can't imagine what my mother or any parent that loses a child goes through.

Habib, Isaiah 55:8/9

 

FB and All Tell, my heart goes out to your family. My wife had two miscarriages between our sons. 22/14, we had no idea she could have another one when we had our 14 year old, but God has blessed us.

My question might detour the thread, but if this is true then does it not extend to abortions, miscarriages, deaths, et cetera? In other words, if everyone is born for a cosmic, divine reason, then would that not also apply to those not born?

 

If I understand you correctly, though, it seems this is incompatible with the idea that everyone is born for a reason. Isn't the act of conception part of free will?

 

You might have to talk to me like I'm stupid here as I'm not following where you are making this distinction. If everything happens for a reason, but man has free-will and can subvert the divine plan then how do you know which is which?

Okay, actually, I didn't give a theologically complete answer. What I should have said (and this is only my meager understanding of the faith) is that all things which are good or advance some greater good, be it immediately apparent or not, are part of God's divine plan. Now things can happen, for the reasons I mentioned above, which can subvert that plan. God never "wants" anyone to suffer misfortune; but in this imperfect world we live in, it happens.

 

I sense that I'm getting in, way over my scriptural head; so I'm hoping Larry, Fastbreak or one of the other Biblically wise will bail me out here.

Edited June 9, 201115 yr by Birdsfan

Habib, Isaiah 55:8/9

 

FB and All Tell, my heart goes out to your family. My wife had two miscarriages between our sons. 22/14, we had no idea she could have another one when we had our 14 year old, but God has blessed us.

Larry, losing our child was the most difficult thing I have faced in my life. The grief and loss were so great it nearly tore apart my marriage and family.

 

I can honestly state that if it were not for God's love, God's Word, God's people and a weak but growing faith in Him, I honestly don't know how my wife or I would have pulled through it, or where we would be today. Because of the hope we have in Jesus Christ and faith that what we may experience here if we are blessed to live 100 years, it is only a drop in the bucket of eternity with Christ and in reunion with our son... and all our family. It's hard to keep in perspective sometimes, but I am absolutely confident that I will have a son greeting me in my future home, eager to show me all the cool things he's already enjoying there.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that instead of despair, I have hope and optimism and anticipation of something much, much better than the best this world has to offer. This is not because I deserve it, but because my King who was willing to take my place on a cross and die for me has made it possible. I cannot get my mind around such love. :thumb:

Habib, its like someone who avoids a tragic accident by going to their car and forgetting their keys. If they had brought their keys from the get go they would have had the accident, but they missed it, but they never knew about it, but the Holy Spirit did. This was referring to your last statement about free will.